Why This Washington Winery Runs Like a Brewery w/ Andrew Gerow (Part 2)

Ep 167

What if wineries have been creating the wrong experience all along?

For many people, walking into a winery can feel intimidating. Between unfamiliar wine terminology, formal tastings, and the pressure to know what you like, it's easy to feel like wine isn't meant for you. But what if wineries borrowed a page from breweries by creating welcoming spaces where everyone feels comfortable, whether they're a wine expert or simply enjoying a glass with friends?

In part two of our conversation, Andrew Gerow shares why his Washington winery, Tirriddis, was intentionally designed to feel more like a brewery than a traditional tasting room. He explains how customer feedback has influenced both the winery experience and the evolution of their sparkling wines, why balance matters more than chasing the driest sparkling wine possible, and how a small amount of sweetness can actually improve traditional method sparkling wine. 

If you've ever felt intimidated by wine or wondered what makes a winery experience truly memorable, this episode is for you.

Be sure to listen to Part 1 (Episode 166) to learn how traditional method sparkling wine is made and why Washington is uniquely suited to producing world-class sparkling wine. 

Connect with Andrew:

Website: https://www.tirriddis.com/

Episode Highlights:

• Why Tirriddis was designed to feel like a brewery
• Creating a welcoming tasting room experience
• Why balance matters more than ultra dry sparkling wine
• The truth about sugar in sparkling wine
• Why listening to consumers creates better wine 
• How tasting room feedback shapes better wines
• Andrew's vision for Washington sparkling wine

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bowlman and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business, Corporate Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Foreign. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. Today you'll be listening to part two of my interview with Andrew Gero. If you haven't heard part one, I highly recommend Pause this episode. Go listen to episode 166 first. We'll be here when you get back. Now, as a reminder, Andrew is the co founder and general manager of Tirdisk, a traditional method sparkling winery out of Prosser, Washington. He studied viticulture and enology at Washington State University. He earned the Wine Spectator Student of the year scholarship in 2020 and spent his time there working every corner of the industry, vineyards, wineries and tasting rooms. This guy, he knows his stuff when it comes to wine. Now, when the pandemic shelved his plans to work harvests abroad, he and two of his classmates, Gabriel and Matthew founded Tyradus. At just 20 years old. I'm just still blown away by this fact. Their focus is on making sparkling wines that are distinctly and unapologetically Washington now. I first met Andrew when he was a panelist for a seminar that I attended back in March during Taste Washington. He just said a lot of interesting things that I like kept jotting down in my notebook and I was like yes, yes, yes. I need to talk to this guy about being on the being on the podcast. These all sound like things that I think you as a listener are going to enjoy and are currently enjoying. Things like how they approach hospitality and experience like a brewery in their tasting room, why they're not trying to replicate champagne but instead want to make sparkling wine that is unapologetically Washington. The importance of sugar and balancing your wine and so much more. So let's dive in. When talking about sparkling, I feel like one of the things that so I first met you at Taste Washington that I mentioned at a seminar. And I remember you talked about sweetness and how important that was in balance in sparkling wines. Because I feel like sweetness is a bit of a taboo subject in wine right now. Like, there's just a lot of people that are like, oh, I don't like sweet wine. Give me something dry. No sweetness at all, no sugar. And then when it comes to sparkling, it's like, oh, the brut natur, no sugar added. I want, you know, that's the kind of what's popular. But why is sweetness so important in a sparkling wine? What role does it play? Balance. You know, I think it's really funny that people put sugar, like, as public enemy number one in wine, where they also. The people who are put in that taboo openly eat, like, sweet white bread. You know, it's like we should be targeting the bread companies for putting sugar into their bread. You know, there's things that deserve sugar and there are things that do not. Wine deserves sugar, particularly traditional method sparkling wine, just because traditional method sparkling wine, it has so much acid. It's one of the few wines in the world where you can effectively create a balanced style with a bit of sugar. So just like cocktails, you go to a cocktail bar, chances are you're going to be drinking a lot of sugar if you're drinking cocktails. But you don't. You don't have that harsh association with it because it's cocktails. Like, the public eye hasn't antagonized sugar and cocktails yet, but it's just this weird thing. But spiritual sparkling deserves a little bit of sugar to it. Not just because of balance, also complexity in the wine through a combination of the pressure and the acid, it actually caramelizes the sugars and lends the complexity in the wine. So a lot of that, like, caramelized brioche profile is more commonly associated through science to the Maillard reaction from that relationship between the acid, pressure, and sugar. So it's incredibly important to the complexity of the wine and the drinkability of wine as well. I mean, like, all the time we have people come into our tasting room and they're like, oh, I like, what's the driest wine that you've got? All of our wines drink dry for sure. Like, our focus is balanced. But I'll pour you our driest wine, and then I'll also pour, you know, an extra dry style. And everybody's like, oh, yeah, like, you know, they're trying to debate 50. 50% of the people are humble, you know, so some. Some people are like, oh, yeah, I like this bigger wine better. And then sometimes there's the person who's like, oh, I like the. I like the dry wine better. And then you come back, like, five minutes later, and the glass of the off dry one is empty, and the glass of the dry one. And it's like, there's proof in the pudding right there. Like, yes. It's not awesome drinking your enamel away. You know, it's nice to have balance in wine and have that drinkability. Just because, like, my goal, I don't want my wine to be just profound for just one glass. I want somebody to be like, oh, I want a second glass of that. I'm excited for that second glass. Like, I could arguably polish off a bottle of this easy. I don't want it to be like, oh, I've had my couple sips. I'm going to file that away from my memories, and I'm never going to buy this bottle again. Right. Like, oh, that was so complex and so fascinating and it was different. And when it's really not. And it's so frustrating because, like you said, those people coming in that are saying, like, give me your driest wine. I feel like it's marketing and it's the, you know, like, what's out there right now that's encouraging them to do that. Because you feel like it is more like, what is the thing where, like, liking a sweet wine makes you less of a wine person or makes, you know, like, you must know less about the wine world or something when it's like, you like what you like and sugar is an important component in wine and like you said, even more important in a sparkling wine. Yeah, it's just one of those things that there's always been a big, big discrepancy between producers and consumers. There's never really been the opportunity for education. And that's totally okay. I'm. I'm the first person to say there's two kinds of wines in the world. Wines you like and wines you don't. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that. That. But it should be important that people know sugar can be okay in wine, and then also sulfur can be good in wine. Like, those are two things that are public enemy number ones to a random person for no reason when they eat that white bread with a ton of sugar and then eat dried fruit or French fries with, like, 10,000 times the amount of sulfur in it. So it's just funny, and that's okay. You know, I can't give any harm or foul to that consumer that thinks that way because they're miseducated from somebody else's malice. And that's what we're here for, is we're happy to have that conversation and share that with people. And then they're like, oh, like, I actually really like this wine. And it's like, oh, cool, because you've been drinking way too dry of wines, and that's why you didn't like it. So. Right. You had this idea that you had to like that when really, like, this is perfectly fine, and this is great. You should drink what you like. Exactly. Yeah. Drink what you like. And everybody in the wine industry right now, like, screaming, please help us. You know, younger people aren't drinking wine. It's like, well, you didn't do yourself any favors. And there's all these people who are interested in trying it, but you have not, like, taken a step down for their taste. You know, accept a little humility, listen to the consumer, and just make something that they want. Yeah. Just a quick reminder. If you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under 15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now, let's get back to the show, and I feel like that ties into another comment that you made on the seminar that, like, I definitely had to hit during this interview of the idea that kind of approaching your, like, approaching the consumer and people coming in. So in the tasting room and how. How you talk to people and how you present your wine, almost approaching it like a brewery. I want to make sure I don't like. I don't misquote you talk to us about what you mean by that. Yeah, I mean, in opening up our tasting room, like, we've had the experience of wine tasting all over, wine tasting all over, and just visiting different concepts, from wine bars to restaurants to breweries, everything. What we loved was more of those community areas where people could come by, grab a glass of wine. I don't love going to a winery, and then all of a sudden, you have this big mat in front of you, 50 different tasting notes. Like, you feel like you're sitting on pins and needles. And that's not what we wanted. We wanted to really approach it with Providing that hospitality and experience of more a brewery or a community area where, sure, you're more than welcome to come by and do a tasting. We're actually more excited for that than anything. We love to educate, give you that tasting, really dive into the nitty gritty of the the wines. But if that's not your speed, that's totally okay because we also have just a really beautiful space that's comfortable, good music, awesome staff that is happy to get you just a glass of wine and make sure that you're all taken care of. You know, anybody can go home and drink for much cheaper than they can going to a winery. So we want to make sure that we're providing an experience that's more memorable and luxurious. But at the same time, like, what does luxurious mean? What does enjoyable mean? As long as people are comfortable in the space, enjoying themselves and surrounded by company that they love and adore, that's all we care about. So making sure that we're able to perform and provide a great experience for that. That late consumer that just wants a glass of wine and to be in the aesthetic of a winery and hang out with their friends, playing cards all the way up to that connoisseur who wants to know the vineyard selections or the time and tirage. But we need to be able to perform on all those levels, and that's really important to us. Yeah. How did you find? Or I guess like, I'm trying to think about, like, this sounds perfect. This is exactly what I want a tasting room to be like. In terms of the people working in your tasting room, how do you make sure that you can create that approachable environment and, you know, how do they approach the consumer so that you can do that while also being educated and knowing everything that they know about the wine so that if someone, you know, wine dork like me walks in and asks all the questions, they can answer them for me. Yeah, I mean, I think everybody in the service, or I guess anybody that has ever dealt with hiring knows it sucks. Hiring is guessing, firing is knowing kind of thing. So it's really difficult. But we're really proud to have our crew. We've got six people, the three of us who started Tierdas, in addition to three others. And it's just, you know, it's personality focused. People need to love to educate themselves, to be able to educate others. So that's really important as well. I mean, there's just common personality traits and our team is just really personable people. We're all highly educated out of the Six of us, five of us have full four year bachelor degrees in viticulture and enology. The other has a full four year degree in biology. So we're all very educated people and we're all also very personable. Like we, we are more stoked about like, we're not more stoked about anything rather than like just sharing our bubbles with people and our space. So it's hard, it's hard finding the right people for the concept. But you can't make the sacrifices. You have to do what it takes. And if you can't find the people, maybe alter the program slightly to accommodate what you're able to have with your infrastructure and your people. But the main thing is you just have to hire the right people. The team is what builds it. And you know, if you don't want to do a job, you have to find somebody that can do it for you. Or if you're getting too busy, you need to find somebody that can do that job for you. So just feeling confident. If you don't feel confident with your people, you can't grow. So I feel confident. Yeah. I really like that. Cause the more I think about going back to like the idea of like similar to a brewery, right. And like how you're replicating that and. Cause it really came to mind of me with like I just had a kid and we're in this Pepsi group with, it's a parent and baby group. And I feel like when we think about where do we want to meet up, a brewery is somehow more approachable than a winery automatically like it's, it's more one, it's kid friendly. Which I understand not all wineries are going to be kid friendly and some people appreciate that because they don't want that. But for us that was the first thing. And I don't drink beer very much, but I still feel totally comfortable going to a brewery. I might ask a question or ask for a recommendation or they're going to have something else other than the beer for me to drink. And I wonder, like, to me at least that's kind of like one of those things that I would love to see more wineries doing of making a space where like large groups could go, even if not everybody is quote unquote, a wine person. Right? No, it's, it's so important. And just the one thing is I am who I am. Right. I don't have that all encompassing perspective from everybody's viewpoint. But humility is such a strong tool, you know, from like you like recent mother or recent new mothers coming into the tasting room or recently new families. Like, one thing is we had a dad bring in his newborn kid. We didn't have a baby changing station in the men's room. Guess what we have now because we. We asked, like, hey, like. Or he. He just mentioned it. And that's like, every single opportunity, interaction with a customer is an opportunity to better understand and accommodate other people. So. And then as simply as what you mentioned, going to a brewery and having alternatives, you know, we're a winery, and we've got beer. We've got a couple beers from a couple local brewers, because sometimes there is a person in the group who doesn't like wine. So it's just those little things that you can do to accommodate. But every single interaction is an opportunity to learn and better. Better your program. And that's something that we always try to do, is ask questions and do what we can. And yeah, yeah, I think that's so important. I mean, it's making me think about, like. Like what you talked about, too, while they're talking about nowadays, like, oh, please, like, you know, people aren't drinking enough wine or, you know, the younger generations aren't interested. Like, we need to hear what they're saying. Like, if they're saying, like, I know. I think you mentioned during the seminar, your Washington blend at one point was a brut natur. You had very little sugar on it and then changed it based off hearing from your consumers and that, oh, actually, we do like it to be a little bit of sweetness, a little more balance in there. And so. And then just like the little things, like you said, we heard someone say there's not a changing room. We need to change that to make sure that our space. And then also with respect to the wine, instead of hearing people say they don't like this or they don't like that, you don't always have to make a change for it, but hearing it and being willing to say, huh, maybe we do need to make a change. Or maybe we could do something a little different to meet general palate or more people's palate instead of just your own. The maker, 100%. I think every single winemaker would benefit from working a tasting room. Don't need to do it every day, but every single winemaker will benefit from working in the tasting room at least a couple hours a week or, you know, a day, a month. But just getting that feedback on the wines, it breaks down your ego and reminds you why you're making the wine. You're making it for people. Like, I don't make 10,000 cases of wine to drink myself, I'd be long dead. I make it to share with people. And that's what excites me the most, is when people have the aha moment where it complements the situation that they're in. And it's like we are working our hardest to make sure that wine is best for that situation. And you're spot on. I mean, all of our wines when we started were premature first off because we didn't have the equipment fair and we were admittedly maybe lazy to do it pipette by pipette. But as we continue to grow, we got access to the equipment and we've very much been able to dial in our wines like the Washington blend going from root mature to brute. And now it's actually extra dry. 14 grams per liter, just 1 gram per liter north of the brute spectrum. But that's just because that's what people want. When I describe the wine as touting, accessible and approachable, that's everything about that wine. And just that little tad slight sweetness to it to balance out the acid just makes it that much better for so many people. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Okay, well, we have one last question before what I call my speed round. Speed round isn't like buzzer in real fast, but more like there might be lots of answers to this question or you could ponder on it for a really long time. So just first thing that come to mind. But before we get to that, what's next for tierdesk? Do you have any short term or long term goals? Wait, I know you think this is an ad, but it's not. So don't hit Skip. I have a small favor to ask. Here's the truth. I will never charge you to listen to this show, but every episode takes time and money to create. So if this podcast has helped you pick a better bottle, learn something new, or just kept you company, would you consider becoming a paid subscriber? You can show your Support for just 3, 5, 8 or $10 a month to say thanks. Every single supporter gets a shout out on the next episode I record. And if you choose the $10 tier, you actually get to pick a future episode topic. Setting up a subscription is a great way to show your love for the show. Just click the link in the description right now. Thank you for listening, supporting and being part of my wine loving community. Now let's get back to the show. Oh, to put into visualization, have you ever seen like the Sherman Williams Logo of the paint bucket Pouring over the world. Oh, yes. I just want to tear this bottle. Pouring over the world. I want to. I want to be able to get our bottles to people all around, to give them that vacation in a bottle, inspire them to, you know, in the next couple of years, plan that vacation out to Washington state, you know, so I just want to. I really want to be able to continue to expand tierdives outside of Washington so people around the United States and the world have the opportunity to see what makes Washington so special, especially through the lens of traditional method sparkling wines. So that's really my goal. I don't think there's necessarily a marker of that being achieved. But, you know, we have our tasting room in Prosser right now. Love where we're at. You know, maybe another tasting room on the west side of the state. But ultimately just continuing to grow tiridas so people can experience what makes Washington sparkling and Washington wines so special. Yeah, I love it in terms of. I know with people can try it when they come out and taste. If they come out to Washington. And so think about going to the tri cities to Prosser to taste wine in Washington. Would it also be something where they could talk to their local wine shop and say, hey, I want to try to get this wine in. Would that be possible? I know distribution is hard, but at least making having an interest is a good place to start. Oh, absolutely. I mean, as simple as asking your local wine shop to bring it in. I mean, we have distribution all around Washington and a few other states as well. And if we don't have distribution in that state, chances are the wine shop might reach out to us, see if we're interested in expanding distribution. I mean, that's happened. Exhibit A would be Missouri. We, we have our wines in Missouri just because there's a person who came out to Washington, enjoyed our sparkling, went to their local wine shop. Wine shop connected with us. They connected us with the distributor, and now we're great friends with that person in that market. So, I mean, it's crazy what just one simple ask can do and how much it can change for multiple people. So that makes our world turn around for sure. If you are a little bit less patient, you can always order online. We do ship and we have an awesome wine club and going back to the. Trying to be as accessible as possible and being a winery for the modern contemporary drinker. In our wine club, all wine club members get free shipping on all orders. Wow. Not just free shipping, but shipments are fully customizable and Life is complicated. You know, you just got back from a trip, your credit card statement is high, or. Or whatnot. You can always skip a shipment without having to cancel your club membership. So we want to be as accommodating as possible for. For everyone. Oh, I love that. Those are some great things to think about with a club. Both the. The free. Free shipping. Man, that feels good. And then, yeah, like you said, not having to cancel if you just want to pass on one. One shipment. Exactly. I love it. Okay, well, time for our speed round. Like I said, these are just questions that, like, you could have, like, multiple answers. So we're just going for, like, what's the first thing that comes to mind? So first question is, what is your favorite wine at the moment? Ooh. Ooh. I love an aged dessert. Pinot gris from All Sauce in France. Ooh, that's a different one. I like that. Are you having it for dessert or are you having it, like, with cheese? What's the. What do you have in this wine with dessert with cheese sitting on the patio? It's just a good one. That's the wine that I, like, dream of drinking on a nightly basis. If I'm talking about the wine that I'm, like, actively drinking that I. I'll have more often or seek out more often, I love, like, a simple Sancerre or Alagote from Beauzeron in Burgundy or something like that. Nice white or, you know, it's a massive wine, but Chateau St. Michel's dry Riesling, you can find it anywhere. Absolutely delicious. So I will give a plug to Chateau St. Michel. I love it. Okay, what is a go to bottle of wine for you to bring to, like, a dinner party or to share with friends? Ooh, to share with friends. I love bringing bottles that other friends make. Yeah. Like one of my friends, Chad Salachi, down in California at Rustique Vineyards, I love bringing his Pinot up just because, you know, there's not much Pinot in Washington. So it's. It's fun to show my friends Pinot with my friends. But, yeah, I just love drinking stuff that my friends make. It's really cool to be able to do. And it's just like, that's what wine is, is relationship focused. Yeah. No, I agree. Okay, how about what is a favorite wine region that you've ever visited? Oh, well, admittedly, I haven't really been able to travel when I've been 21 years old. I was realizing that when I was reading the intro, and you're like, we found it. We were 20. I was like, wait a second. That was. That was you. What. How did you do that? Yeah. Admittedly, haven't really been able to travel to wine regions as a 21 year old, so I might pass. That's okay. We'll flip it. The next question is the flipped and it'll make more sense for you. What's a wine region you would like to visit? Alsace. Nice. Yes. That is one I also want to go to. I went to France the end of last year with my. The end of it was two years ago with my husband, and we couldn't get to Alsace. We went to a few other spots, but that was definitely one that's still on the. Still on the list. And I'll follow up with the wild card of Tasmania. Ooh. Okay. All right. Incredible bubbles coming out of Tasmania. So I think that would be a really important place to see really cutting edge new world sparkling. Yeah. Okay. I've already asked you about a food pairing, but I'm gonna ask you again for a different one. What is a favorite wine and food pairing? That comes to mind when I just mentioned that. Oh, one of my buddies or two of my buddies, they have a empanada company called Osogordo. And it's this pino style of empanada that's like ground beef, there's some olive, there's egg in there. Really weird to describe, but it is the most delicious empanada ever. And having that with our barrel fermented blanc de blanc is really good. Barrel fermented blanc de blanc. It's just whatever you're eating, you. You got. You can almost pair that with it. I love it. Yep. Okay, if I gave you a thousand dollars and you had to spend it on wine, how would you approach that? You don't necessarily have to tell us like, what specific wines, but would you go for like some big bottles? Would you make up a couple cases of just lower cost wines? How would you approach spending a thousand dollars on wine? 20$50 bottles. I like it. Would you go for variety? Are they all from one place? Oh, I'd probably do like 1/6 pack of a wine that I'm just obsessed with that I want to hate. But I mean, simply put, I'd probably break it in to like, you know, I maybe get two or three bottles of red and then I'd probably get like 10 to 15 bottles of white wine and then I would get the remainder in sparkling. I love it. There are so many white. It's so funny when I talk to people And I'm. I'm more of a white wine person as well. And a lot of folks who are in the wine world that are. That are, you know, drink a lot of wine, they're like, wow, you drink more white than red. I'm like, oh, absolutely. Like, there's a time for a good red wine, but honestly, most of the time, I'm going to the wine fridge and I'm pulling out a white wine. Oh, yes, absolutely. Me, I love it. Okay, so last question, Speed round, end of the interview. What is a wine myth that bugs you the most? Oh, I mean, easily antagonizing. Sugar. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's. That's a. A big point of frustration for me. But I don't know. I don't really let it frustrate me. I just, like, you know, hey, you know, you might be wrong. Are you open to hearing? Why, sure. Yeah. Like, it's more like, what's one that you'll get on your soapbox and talk a little bit about? Yeah, I mean, that's definitely one that I'll get on my soapbox and talk about. Especially when, like, educated people in the wine industry are like, I need brute mature any dosage and the wine is ruined. And I'm immediately like, you're wrong and the winemaker is lazy. That's fair. And you're like, because I can say that, because that was me at one point where we didn't have the equipment and we didn't want to, you know, go through and add sugar to all of the wine. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Also wine is 100% subjective, so I'm a firm believer in that. But, you know, everybody has the right to their own opinions. No, I love it. All right, well, we've made it to the end of the interview. Is there anything else you want to share before we close out? Not necessarily. I guess the only thing that I could ask is I hope that people get to try Tiridis and remember that there's three things that are incredibly important to us and just proper, original and authentic sparkling. You know, proper traditional method, original to Washington and authentic to us who make it. That's really the important things for tierdists. And we just hope that you enjoy our expression of Washington traditional method. Oh, what a perfect way to end it. Thank you so much for joining me, Andrew, and for talking about Tiridus. And yes, very excited for folks to give it a try. Yes, thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Hayley. Of course. Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast if you'd like to learn more about Tiridas and try their sparkling wines, you can check out their website tiridus.com T I R R I--I S.com or be sure to request them at your local wine shop. Even if they don't have them right now, it's a great way to try to get them in more wine shops around the country. And of course, be sure to visit their tasting room. If you're in Prosser in the Tri Cities area of Washington. If you love this episode as much as I did, you know what I'm going to ask. If you have not rated this podcast yet, please just open up your phone, go on whatever app you're listening to this right now, and leave me a little rating. Five stars would be great if you enjoyed it, especially if you made it this far. I feel like five stars is worthy. We are worthy of five stars if you've made it this far, but you decide. And of course if you could leave a review, Apple Podcast Sleeves gives you an option for that. Please tell me what you like about the podcast and if you know a wine lover, be sure to share it with them. If you'd like to go above and beyond and showing your support for the show and ultimately me, you can become a paid subscriber. Click the link in the show notes to become a monthly supporter. For $10 or less a month, you'll get a shout out in the next episode I record. Plus, if you choose the $10 a month option, you get to choose a topic for a future episode. Speaking of the next episode, in next week's episode I'll be sharing value hacks for popular wine. So if you like wines like Sancerre, Burgundy, Napa, Cabernet, but you don't like spending a lot of money on them, you're going to want to listen in. I'm going to share some of my favorite wines that are incredibly similar, if not maybe a little better than these wines, but do not cost an arm and a leg. Thanks again for listening and if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at corkandfizz on Instagram. Cheers.