Michigan Wine: Stranger Wine Co's Minimal Intervention Wine (Part 2)

Ep 159

The region matters. The grape matters. But how the wine is made is what changes everything.

There’s a level of intention happening behind the scenes that most people never see. In this episode with Maxx and Sidney from Stranger Wine Co., you’ll hear how winemaking decisions like not crushing grapes, using native yeasts, and limiting intervention completely change the structure, texture, and expression of the wine. In a cold climate like Michigan, even small choices can impact tannins, aromatics, and balance in a big way. This isn’t about doing things a certain way just because that’s how it’s always been done. It’s about making intentional choices that actually impact how the wine tastes.

We also get into what it actually looks like to build a winery from the ground up, from regenerative farming and taking on more vineyard land to navigating sales, distribution, and growth as a small team. Because making the wine is only part of it, getting people to understand it and buy into it is a completely different challenge.

If you’ve ever wondered why some wines feel more expressive, more balanced, or just plain different, this episode will tell you exactly what’s behind that.

Connect with Maxx and Sidney from Stranger Wine Co.

Website: https://www.strangerwineco.com/

Episode Highlights:

• How cold climate impacts winemaking decisions
• Why they avoid crushing grapes in production
• The role of sulfur and common misconceptions
• What it takes to build a winery from scratch
• How they divide roles as a small team
• Why selling wine is often the hardest part
• Their approach to minimal intervention winemaking
• 4 wines that best represent the style of Stranger Wine Co.

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bowlman and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. Today you'll be listening to part two of my interview with Stranger WineCo. If you haven't heard part one and you're just tuning in now for the first time, welcome. But I'm going to recommend you pause this episode and go listen to episode 158 first. I'll be here waiting for you when you're done. As a reminder, Max and Sydney are the duo behind Stranger Wine Company out in Michigan. These two are bringing such a fresh, creative energy to the Midwest wine scene, making wines that are fun, a little unconventional, and totally rooted in the personality of where they're grown. What I love about them is that they're not trying to copy what everyone else is doing. They're building something that feels honest, experimental and uniquely stranger. Max and Sydney are hands on with everything from farming to fermentations to storytelling in the tasting room and selling. And they have such a great perspective on what it takes to build a small winery from the ground up in a region like Michigan that most wine lovers don't know much about. So without further ado, let's get into it. Let's talk about your winemaking. Can you tell us a little bit more about your winemaking style? We'll just do whites and reds. Make it easy. So all whites are. Everything's hand harvested first of all, and most whites see skin contact through piage foot stomping. All whole cluster never distemmed, never crushed. So we'll soak them for two to six hours depending on the variety, the vintage, the quality of the fruit they get. Whole cluster pressed 2 1/2 to 4 hour cycles on the pressure, settled for 24 hours and racked directly to neutral French oak barrels. 225 or 228 liters and a couple puncheons. Then they go through native fermentations. If everything goes well, if I do have something that's going bad, I'm not above intervening, but, you know, I think I've intervened on three wines in the five years at Stranger, which is a ode to the fruit quality. And then they age without racking between six and eight months. And now we're experimenting finally in our own space with shutting them down in tank for six months after barrel to get em nice and reductive. Yeah. So that's white wine. The big takeaway is never racking. And we also stir a bunch. Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds like you're kind of going for, like, texture with the fact that you're doing the whole cluster and you're doing the no racking, which means you've got those lees in there. So you're really trying to get some texture into the white wines. Yeah. When we dump our barrels after we do rack them for bottling, we'll have about two and a half inch layer of lees on the bottom. Love my gross lees. And then reds, never crushed, only distemmed. And Pinot Noir will see anywhere between 25 and 50% whole cluster every year. All Bordeaux varieties and Rhone varieties are de stemmed. Everything sees cold soaking, if possible. We don't have glycol in the winery, so we use Michigan to cold soak, which normally works. If nights are at 40 degrees, the fruit will be very cold. And then it kicks off native fermentation in native mallows. Native mallows are done in barrel, and all reds are right now actually in either Sagaun Moreau or Francois Ferrer ald neutral. And then those are aged between 12 and 22 months without racking. Okay. All right. And then the neutral oak is saying that you're looking for, again, a little texture change, but not the flavor of the oak being added in. Sometimes I'm shocked, though. You know, you buy these used barrels and it's like, whoa, that had a lot of life in it left. So, yeah, sometimes you'll get a stranger wine where it's a little more oaky than others, but always restrained. And they're all single variety, single vineyard. Okay. Yeah. We really like to focus on expressing the fruit as it is. So that's where the kind of the goal not to mask it with oak or, you know, no commercial yeast that would alter the flavors. Because we spend so much of our time growing and dedicating ourselves and Max, really, to making sure that the grapes are getting farmed in a way that expresses is their varietal characteristics. So I think it's just, that's kind of our whole approach. Be really light handed. Showcase Michigan for what it is and help challenge the perceptions of Michigan wine by not blending things together. Like this is what it is, right. Like none of the like kind of red blend. I feel like I see that out of a lot of regions that are kind of smaller and that's when you're kind of like, eh, I don't know, you just kind of put some grapes. Nothing against blend. I love a good blend. It can be great. It's more like when they're not saying exactly what's inside or they're kind of hiding behind things. It sounds like this is kind of your opportunity to be like, first, let's just say here we can do this single vineyard, single grape variety. And then once people start to accept that, you're like, okay, now look at these cool field blends we made. Now that you've accepted that like Michigan makes cool wine. Yeah, we make, we make two blends. Our rose is normally Pinot Noir and Cabernet Franc. Yeah. Which is. It's normally heavily Pinot Noir, but a little Kiss of Cab franchise. And I do two floor aged wines, a white and a red, which is all the leftover wine from Racking when we do it is then aged 12 months under floor and it's a forced blend. So. And it's 00. It's very natty. So I'm like, taste the single vineyards and then if you want to get funky with it, come to Petit Clo. I love it. Just a quick reminder, if you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show you talked too about. With both the whites and reds you never crush. What is the reason for that or how does that impact the wine? Yeah. So because we're a cold climate, cool climate, the tannin structure and the anthocyanic concentration in the wines and the phenols in the wines are much more delicate. And we're not trying to make a bruiser of a wine. I grew up drinking Burgundy, and it's my favorite thing in the world. I love Burgundy. And those wines are so pure and they're so delicate, but have so much intensity to them. It's like kind of a juxtaposition. And I think that's why we love Burgundy. And so the idea with the whites is for minerality, texture, and to not overcrowd it with bitterness. Possibly lots of Chardonnay specifically can be bitter. And then in the reds, a little bit of semi carbonic maceration. Though it's minute when it's just whole berries. But that little bit that can happen adds a lot of aromatic lift to the wine. And especially with, like, Bordeaux, you avoid pyrazine complications in wines when you don't crush, and it's much more dainty. So avoiding that, like, pyrazine, for the folks that aren't know, it's like the green pepper, that very vegetal kind of flavor. Right. Yeah. And. And I believe doing this fermentation procedure from my studies really does allow the grapes to show itself and not the winemaker, because as soon as you crush, you're adding so much more to a wine that you might need to alter and. Or, like, back off. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I've never really thought about that. And then it makes sense if you crush the grapes for the whites. You were saying that's where that bitter flavor can come from is if you're getting too much of. Too much of that. Okay. One of the other things I noticed on the website when I was reading is that you do reduced sulfur at bottling. And I feel like this. This is always a hot topic. Any chance I get to talk to people who know more about this than me, I'm gonna take that opportunity. So I'm curious. My understanding is, like, adding sulfur at bottling is in order for, like, longevity and to help the wine stay stable over time. And I know your winery is still fairly new, but it's had a couple, you know, years, and you've had a chance to make some wine. But have you noticed an issue with this at all, with doing the reduced sulfur? And are you concerned at all about it? No. No. The reduced sulfur is. So they're not 00. I have seen, you know, some 00 wines can age just gorgeously, and they are true. And tell me again, what is. What is 00? Sorry? Nothing to. Nothing taken, nothing removed. So truly, just fermented grape juice. That's it. Like, no additives, not even sulfur. Okay. It is the foundation of the Natural wine movement. So for me, I use molecular sulfur. So there are, like, levels in wine where it's molecularly stable, and that's around 10 to 30 ppm parts per million of sulfur. So we're talking like in a thousand liter tank, right? Like 30 grams of sulfur, like, pretty minute. And so I haven't seen anyone's. We've opened a bunch of 21 wines that we made, and they are fresh as the dickens. And even those petite clothes that Max was talking about that are the floor aged 00 wines, those have seemingly only gotten better as they've aged. And so maybe, you know, maybe it's a flu, but no, it's not. It. It's given us a lot of hope that there's possibility for it. We're not dogmatic about not using sulfur, but I do think we've both had wines that felt over sulfur before, and it kind of strips some of the soul and character out of the wine. So we try to be really light handed about it. Yeah, it's just. It's a tool that us winemakers use where minimal intervention, which is unfortunately a kind of like washed word. Now, like, everybody uses it, but I've been leaning more towards traditional. Like, if you go to the. The cellars in the Jura, if you go to the cellars in Burgundy, they won't really use sulfur during fermentation at all. And then they will dose it at bottle, and it's very minimal because the key to do this is to have a chemically stable wine. And we are very much blessed here in Michigan with, like, our phs, our total acids, our sugars. We're not out of whack. We're very much in balance here. And a balanced, chemically stable wine, it'll go the long haul. It really will. Which is why old Napa ages better than a newer Napa. Oh, that makes sense, right? It's like, because if you're going. If you're adding the sulfur in order to make the wine, you know, stable and have longevity, it's like, well, also, could you just make the wine so that it has longevity and is stable on its own without the sulfur? Bingo. Bingo. Okay. All right. Makes sense. All right. We talked a little bit about your wines, and I'm going to get back to that. But I'm just curious as, you know, working as a couple and starting a winery, I always love to hear, like, kind of like the experience for you guys. And how do you, you know, divide roles between the two of you? Is it kind of a natural Fit or something. You're. You're still figuring out with running Stranger Wine company together. It evolves constantly. I think when we started the project, you know, we were definitely both in the ring a little bit more. Like I said, I kind of started in agriculture and I love that Max, he's really taken to it and he's kind of become the viticulturalist of the group. We had our daughter during harvest in 2022, which was really wise decision. So smart. Being just a two person team, that was definitely tough and we're very lucky we've had people help us along the way. That year it was a lovely woman, Kristi Wens, who was helping us out. But as I have been very intentional about stepping into the role of being really present in motherhood, I'm actually eight months pregnant right now too. So I've stepped away from the actual farming quite a bit, which I really hope to get back to. It's what makes me happy. But Max is 100% the brains behind the wine. I just love to go in and give him a hard time and make weird faces while tasting stuff to stress him out that he, he does all of the kind of winemaking and a lot of the compliance stuff. Whereas I would say I focus a lot on kind of our business growth, marketing. I definitely led the charge on tasting room going. And again, I primarily been doing the customer service. But now that I'm very pregnant, Max is taking a lot of that on too. So it's just constantly this ebb and flow of, you know, that'll give a little take. But I think it works for us and I think it keeps it really exciting because we're both very proficient in all areas. If Max needed me to go into the winery and do something with limitation, I would probably, probably be able to do that. And likewise, I trust that he can do everything that I do. So that's kind of the perks of being such a small team and such a small company. Yeah. And I think in a couple of years it's going to be even totally different from today. So. Yeah. So true. It's. And it's so interesting too. I always have to remind myself like when we're talking about, okay, like dividing the roles, it's like it's not just like the grapes and the winemaking. Right. It's like there's what's after that as well. Like you talked about a lot of the business stuff. There's so much that to be done on the selling, which kind of goes back earlier when you talked about that mentor of yours where it was like, you need to learn how to sell wine too. That's something that comes up a lot when I talk to winemakers. They're like, actually the hardest thing about making wine is then selling the wine. Luckily, it's my favorite thing to do. Like, I love doing sales calls. And because I don't see it as a business transaction, I truly and like, in my heart see it as building more community. And my number one goal in sales is to become the buyer's friend in a genuine way. And like, we have made so many amazing relationships in Michigan through because we self distribute too. Like, we're driving around the state delivering wine and a lot of these people that took us on as a chance, right? This young Michigan wine maker and team, they're like, they're such close friends now, and that's like, it's the best thing ever. So for us, sales is great. It's fun, but it is tough. Max definitely leads the charge on the, on the sales. When it comes to kind of wholesale. I think I've done a lot of like, the dtc, so it's again, always so, so weird. When we started the wine club, I was kind of in charge of that, but Max will probably be taking that over this spring. And it's just, yeah, always changing. I mean, we officially got licensed to sell our wine. We had two vintages that we had made, and we were waiting for our licensing to shore up so that we could actually start selling. Like I said, our daughter was born in mid September of 2022, and we started selling wine. I think November 6th was when we went live. So arguably our best sales rep that year was our daughter. Because we would just show up with this, like, tiny little peanut of a baby, and people were like, yeah, absolutely. Sign me up. You know, like, we want to support you. Absolutely. Yeah. Now she's a full blown liability, but it's okay. These things change. Yeah. And luckily they put just. People just put trust in us immediately. We honestly don't. We don't know why, and we're so grateful for it. And luckily the wines have been good enough each vintage that they keep buying it. That is. That is good. You're like, they have the trust. And then. And then we did show up. We did. We promised. I think most of the people who work with us have a very good understanding that we are a little bit of a hot mess, you know, But I guess it comes with the territory of starting something like this. And we will get it together. It's the lore. No, that's the best. We love that. I feel like anybody loves, like, we much prefer the story behind the wine. And, you know, if it was all perfect, that wouldn't be as much fun. We'd go to one of the big wineries and, you know, they've got all their systems down and whatever. Like, that's no fun. We like that. We like the stories. All right, so before we go on to kind of the last questions for folks that are listening, that are like me, that are like, okay, we need to try this wine. I know you do offer it direct to consumer online, shipped to most states in the U.S. but what I want your help with is if folks are going online, they're going to pick out some wines. Let's say they want to buy three bottles. Which three bottles do you feel like best represent? Stranger Wine Company? Wait, I know you think this is an ad, but it's not, so don't hit Skip. I have a small favor to ask. Here's the truth. I will never charge you to listen to this show, but every episode takes time and money to create. So if this podcast has helped you pick a better bottle, learn something new, or just kept you company, would you consider becoming a paid subscriber? You can show your Support for just 3, 5, 8, or $10 a month to say thanks. Every single supporter gets a shout out on the next episode I record. And if you choose the $10 tier, you actually get to pick a future episode topic. Setting up a subscription is a great way to show your love for the show. Just click the link in the description right now. Thank you for listening, supporting, and being part of my wine loving community. Now let's get back to the show. Pinot Noir, like easily buy a Pinot please. Chardonnay. Chardonnay big time. And so something that's for sale right now. Pinot gris. I love Pinot gris so much. I'm kind of team Catsav over here. Cats off. All right, that's fine. So four. Yeah. Buy four bottles. Yeah. I mean, yeah, those all four represent us very well on the plethora of what we could do. I think the Pinot gris is definitely one of the best examples of texture in wine. Some of the Pinot gris that Max has been farming for the last several years and the way he makes can kind of feel like you're licking beeswax, which is a really cool sensory experience. But I love the cab sav because it a, it's a beautiful wine and I think it's again, one of those ones that people don't really immediately think of when they think of Michigan. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, and especially if your other two are Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. Right. Because in my head, those are kind of like two very different. Typically they come from two different regions. Right. Or the fact that you can do both is pretty cool to kind of be like, we have the Pinot family, but also here we have kind of this, you know, the. The Bordeaux red that, that a lot of people think of. We grow Riesling and Cabernet Sauvignon in the same field. Dang. It is very, very cool. And I'm, yeah, so excited about all the things. So now, now that we're like, I'm like, so excited about Michigan wine, what's next for you and Stranger Wine Company? I know this is kind of a tough question of like, you're like, I just doing everything we're doing right now, but where do you see yourself kind of five to ten years down the road and are there any wines you're like, super excited or most looking forward to making? I think that just continuing to kind of grow in the way that we currently are trying to take over more farming. We have a 57 acre plot that we own that we're hoping to start planting maybe 20 to 30 acres of slowly but surely just maintaining our commitment to regenerative farming, incorporating more, you know, grazing and sustainable practices as much as possible and just experimenting with lots of different wines and method. Champenois is coming around the corner big time. We're going to make more pet Nats. I hate to say that out loud. I hate making pet Nat. But, yeah, it is popular these days and it honestly, it's really delicious, the Cab Franc Pet Nat. But I think hospitality is probably where I'd like to focus a lot right now. Bringing people over here to see what we can do and having that agrotourism element is really important to highlight that wine is ultimately an agricultural product. And I think if we can get a tasting room built on site to really bring that all together and I think that would be the. The dream little farm to table kitchen. We'll see what happens. I don't know. Yes, yes. I love it. That would be great. I'm also going to make sure it's still in your head, that field blend of those Jura varieties. That sounds lovely to me. So. All right. I'm going to make sure. I know it's going to take some time, but I'm going to Keep an eye out for that one. Yeah. All right. So the way that I always like to end these interviews, I do a little speed round. It doesn't mean you have to like buzzer in and answer really fast. It's more like these questions, you know, you could probably think on them for a while. Just go with the first thing that comes to mind. That's like the easiest way to do it. So, for example, the first question is, what is your favorite wine at the moment? Walter Scott Hill Chardonnay 2023. Oh, okay. I like it. And then. Yes. Sorry, Sydney, this is also a hard question for you. I'm actually. I don't know if I've told you, I'm also eight months pregnant right now, so I get that. Yeah. Why am very excited to drink when I'm not pregnant. There you go. Bedrock Barbera. Ooh, great answers. Yeah, nice. Okay. All right. And then what is like a go to bottle of wine to bring to a dinner party or to share with friends? Domain de Pepier is Cleatson Muscadet. Mmm, Muscade. That like high acid white. And I feel like it like that's one of my like, go to like restaurant orders too. And like, I don't know what everyone's doing because it pairs well with pretty much everything. Please ons from that small little granite vineyard. And it's just like, it's crazy. I usually defer to Max because she's kind of our wine nerd. But I love something fun and easy like a bottle of bubbly. Like the atmospheres is always kind of a hit. So. Yes, something easy. Yeah, I love it. I think sparkling tooth. Yeah. Is a good one. And like, and honestly, like Pet Nat too, is one that like, I feel like people get excited about and can be kind of fun to bring. Okay, how about favorite wine region that you've visited before? Alsace. Oh, I'm so jealous that you've been to Alsace. That was one region I couldn't make when I went to France and that was definitely one I was considering. My family's Alsatian, I would say, in southern New Zealand. Otago. Nice. Another region that is on my must visit list. Okay, well, how about. So now I'm going to flip it on you. A wine region you would like to visit that you haven't been to yet. I'd like to go to a lot of the French wine regions. I haven't had an opportunity yet, so maybe a little river cruise through as many as I can. Well, if Sydney took that, because I'll Be with her on that. Anyway, I would say Australia. Tasmania. Ooh. Yes. Okay. Another great region. All right. What is a favorite wine and food pairing? Just kind of like a go to Pizza and Loire Cab Franc. I was gonna say pizza and Nebbiolo. Perfect. We eat a lot of pizza. I love the two different combos because I wouldn't think Cab Franc with pizza, but I feel like that could go really well. The more champagne is like, yeah, okay. And then of course, your traditional. Gotta go Italian with the Italian red. I'm a sucker for Nebbiolo. That's like one thing we can't grow here, so. I know, I know Nebula's hard. I've heard from a lot of people that you really shouldn't grow Nebbiolo anywhere but Piedmont. That it just like, doesn't work well anywhere else. Okay. All right, last two questions. If you were given a thousand dollars to spend on wine, you had to spend it on wine. Like, what wine would you buy? How would you go about using that? Not. You don't have to be like, super specific. More like, you know, would it be a lot of smaller bottles? Would you go for something high end, expensive? What would be your technique? I already know our answers are so different on that question. Yeah, I'd buy like. I'd buy like five$250 bottles or four $250 bottles of like, really nice Burgundy. Yes, that makes sense. All right. All right. I would probably sign up for a couple of the small bottle shop wine clubs because I really love seeing what people are curating. And I'd see how many months a thousand dollars would get me. I love it. It's like the two different. Different techniques of how to. How to spend the money. Yeah. We're very different wine drinkers. All right, and then the last question. What is one wine myth that bugs you the most? Sulfur gives you headaches. Yes. The sulfur allergy affects less than 1% of the world's population. And you should just drink less, drink more water, and stop drinking wines that are really high in alcohol and sugar. Yes, I agree with that. That is mine as well. I love that you're even like a winery that, like, you do try to do reduce sulfur. And you still hate that myth of a hundred percent. Not to say pizza again, but a slice of pepperoni pizza has like 2000 ppm of sulfur in it. So like a bottle of water. Yeah, it's just. I feel like sulfur got demonized. And I don't know who's against big Sulfur. Well, I've heard from a lot of people is that it's because it's one of the few things that's written on a wine bottle of what the wine bottle contains. So if you don't know, you know. So it's easy to be like, okay, well, like, I have other alcohol and I'm probably fine. But you also probably drink more wine because you don't know you're doing it right. It's almost always that you're dehydrated. But yeah, it's easy to see, like, oh, this doesn't contain sulfur. That must be the problem. Then I have a problem with sulfur. And it's like, no, no, no, wait. You eat like frozen french fries and app dried fruit and like you said, a piece of pepperoni pizza. And that doesn't cause a problem. It's not sulfur. No, it doesn't. All right, I love it. Well, that is everything. Thank you so much. Thank you. Really enjoyed this Port Michigan wine. Watch out for us. We are the future. And support your local businesses, please. Yes, I love it. All right, well, thank you so much. Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. You can learn more about stranger wines and order their wines@strangerwineco.com if you love this episode as much as I did, I would so appreciate it if you could take a quick second to rate it and leave a review. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them. It would mean the world to me. And just recently I set up a wave for you to support the podcast even more. If you are interested in supporting this podcast financially and helping me keep this going every single week, you have an option. Just go down and check in the show notes to become a paid subscriber. Paid subscribers get a shout out in the next episode that I record and if you are supporting me $10 or more a month, you will get to select an episode. You just let me know what you want me to talk about about in next week's episode. I'm going to do my best to convince you that despite what you hear, wine does not always get better with age. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at corkandfizz on Instagram. Cheers.