Why Michigan Wine Is Gaining Momentum w/ Stranger Wine Co

Ep 158

Michigan wine has been underestimated for years, but that’s starting to change.

For a long time, Michigan wine has been known for sweeter styles and honestly, a lot of people wrote it off because of that. But what’s happening now is very different. There’s a new wave of winemakers coming in with experience from other regions, and they’re approaching things with a completely different level of intention and focus on quality.

In this episode, Maxx and Sidney from Stranger Wine Co. get into what it actually takes to grow and make wine in Michigan. They talk through the realities of working in a cold climate, from snow and freezing temperatures to the risk that comes with every growing season and how they adapt to it. They also break down how those conditions influence what they plant, why grapes like Pinot Noir, Cabernet Franc, Grüner Veltliner, and Kerner are working there, and how those choices are starting to shape a different direction for Michigan wine.

Curious to learn more about Michigan wine? This is a good place to start.

Connect with Maxx and Sidney from Stranger Wine Co.

Website: https://www.strangerwineco.com/

Resources: 

Why Blind Tasting Really Matters w/ Marie Cheslik (part 1) - https://www.corkandfizz.com/blog/guide-to-wine-podcast-episode-134

The Simple framework for understanding any wine label w/ Marie Cheslik (part 2) - https://www.corkandfizz.com/blog/guide-to-wine-podcast-episode-135

Episode Highlights:

• Why Michigan wine has been underestimated for so long
• What it actually takes to grow grapes in a cold climate
• How snow and freezing temperatures impact the vines
• The risk winemakers face each growing season
• Why grapes like Pinot Noir and Cabernet Franc are working in Michigan
• Lesser-known varieties like Grüner Veltliner and Kerner
• How winemakers decide what to plant in this region
• What’s changing in Michigan wine right now
• How a new wave of winemakers is approaching quality differently
• Why more people are starting to pay attention to Michigan wine

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bowlman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. Now it's one of my goals on this podcast to teach you about wine, grapes and winemaking in as many different regions of the world as possible. And one part of that goal that I've had is to talk to winemakers in all 50 regions of the US states. And today we're checking a new state off the list and that is Michigan. Yes, they make wine in Michigan. Really good wine too. The amazing winemakers that I'm talking to today came recommended by Marie Cheslick of Slick Wines. So you know they make good stuff. We were talking to Max and Sydney, who are the duo behind Stranger Wine Company out in Michigan. These two are bringing such a fresh, creative energy to the Midwest wine scene, making wines that are fun, a little unconventional, and totally rooted in personality of where they're grown. What I love about them is that they're not trying to copy what everyone else is doing. They're building something that feels honest, experimental, and uniquely stranger. Max and Sydney are hands on with everything from farming to fermentations to storytelling to selling. And they have such a great perspective on what it takes to build a small winery from the ground up in a region that most wine lovers don't know much about. So if you're curious about Michigan wine, indie winemaking, or what it looks like to build a wine brand that's intentionally different, you're going to love this conversation. So without further ado, let's get into the interview. Okay. Well, I always like to start with one of my favorite questions to ask pretty much anyone in the wine world, and that is when and how did you fall in love with wine? Wine has always been a really big part of my life. I was around it growing up and I have been in restaurants since I was 14 years old. But when I really, I guess fell in love with it was during a thing in college we used to do called Wine Wednesdays, where I would make like a massive, massive cauldron of pasta, normally like pannella vodka. And I would have people bring wine. And when I turned 21, I was able to, you know, go to the wine shop. And I didn't really know too much then because I was just a server or a runner. So. So I was buying, you know, Coppola Black Label or docg Rufino or something like that. And what I loved about it, and I've only really realized this in the last couple years, is that that was probably the best time in college because the community that we built around that I and Sydney and our friends made so many other friends during that time. It got pretty big. Like at one point we had 20 plus people in our smart, small dorm room cooking. So, yeah, that for me, that's when I really like, I think fell. Fell in love with what it's all about. Wow. I mean, I wish I could have had that college experience. We were just, you know, drinking UV Blue or whatever that was. There was no wine. You could be absolutely lying to say there was not an Apothec red in there every now and then. Oh, definitely. But I'm proud to say we never slapped the bag. There was no Franzi or. All right, all right, nice. Slapped a bag in college. That's okay. Totally. Yeah. I mean, my journey into wine was definitely through Max. After college, he was actually applying to programs to go get a PhD in math and climatology. And one of his friends kind of recognized that light in his eyes when he talked about wine. So they encouraged him to go to Walla Walla, Washington and take an internship out there. And I think it was like a couple weeks into it, he called me and he was like, I want to make wine. I love it so much. And you know, we, we're college sweethearts. And as we kind of went down the path of life together, him knowing so definitively he wanted to be in wine, and my path being more by way of agriculture, there was kind of this natural intersection that eventually happened where it was kind of like, hey, if we're going to do this, let's really do it. And so he kind of brought me into the world of wine through agriculture. We worked in Oregon in 2019 doing viticultural management for a group called Results Partners. And it was really just again, one of those moments that solidified. We were, we were where we needed to be. And that was the first year I did a winemaking internship, and I had so much fun. The guys I worked with were great. Like, every day I got to, like, wake up and, like, taste through barrels at 10am and I was like, I love this life. So once you kind of get into it, it's hard to find another industry that really appeals in a lot of the same ways. Yeah. Oh, and I think it's so cool that, like, like you said, you guys both kind of came at this a different way, Max, from, like, the service industry a bit and the community aspect. And then Sydney, you through the agriculture. And so being able to combine that. I suppose that makes sense because it kind of goes into my next question you've started answering. It is like, how did you, you know, go through this journey of falling in love and then falling in love with wine and then starting Stranger Wine Company? And I guess I'm curious if you want to answer that from the point of view of, like, okay, how did you end up in Michigan making wine and starting your winery there? Just a quick reminder. If you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now, let's get back to the show. Great question. Yeah. We could start from there. I think that's, like, an easy segue. Points my mentor out in Washington, Brian Rudin, who now is the winemaker for Echo, Lands out in. Okay. Yeah. And he was the head winemaker for Canvas Back Duck Horn's Washington label. And so I worked a lot with him and got close with him during my internship. And he was like, look, if you really want to do this, you need to do all three sides of the industry. So winemaking, growing, and then import and distribution. And he was like, you should look for a sales job because you need to be able to sell wine if you want to sell your own wine. And I took that advice, and I called a bunch of people in Chicago, where Sydney was, and I landed on Cream Wine Company, and they were like, well, if you can get out here in, like, pretty much a week, we'll give you an interview. I'd never done sales before. I'd Just been a server. And so I drove from Washington to Chicago in two days. During the Cubs winning the World Series. Yep. Oh, all right. And long story short, got the job with Cream and worked with them for two and a half years. But during that time, they had one of the only Michigan wine books in their portfolio. And so I got to sell some Michigan wine, mainly Wincroft, who was owned by James Lester. And I did a work with. With James. We drove around together all day. It was like. It turned into like an 11 hour day. It was awesome. But he really turned me onto the idea that Michigan had something. And prior to that, I had not really thought of it. I had been going through WSET. I did the diploma program in like 18 months because I was fast tracking everything. Yeah. And I was like, wait a second. With everything that I'm learning, I was like, Michigan makes a lot of sense. And then the climate, mathematics, background, I could do my digging. It was like, okay, this does make sense. So all the numbers align. Yeah. And, you know, as we started, truthfully, like I said, In 2019, we were out in the Willamette Valley, and our intention was to kind of spend a couple years bumbling around different American growing regions and kind of see what felt right. And Michigan had always been on our radar since we started the journey because of Max's introduction to the area and truly its appeal for sustainability. It's not overcrowded as a wine region. It kind of has this wild charm, you know, like when you meet Michigan wine people, they're characters. And that's been very appealing to us. So we were living in a van kind of when we were out west doing work out there. And in 2020, the spring of 2020, all of the opportunities that we had kind of looked forward to exploring no longer existed. And for us, we were some of the very lucky people where kind of everything shutting down really worked in our favor. It gave us an opportunity to come to Michigan and really start exploring. Max got to kind of meet some of the other winemakers. Andrew up at Modalis was really foundational to kind of us coming here and talking through their wine production and tasting their stuff. Brian up at Left Foot Charlie, his wine really excited us. And so there were just people here doing it already in a way that made us feel like, yeah, maybe we shouldn't ignore this emerging region. And we kind of like the challenge of Michigan wine having a little bit of a funky reputation because it gives us an opportunity to really showcase that. No, it should be on the world stage. And it's a very comparable wine growing and wine production region to some of the places that sommeliers and wine enthusiasts really think of as the best. So, yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. And I think we definitely need to talk more about Michigan winemaking and all of that, because I think for many people listening to this, I mean, for myself, I have yet to try a Michigan wine. And I'm actually from the Midwest. I'm originally from Wisconsin, so from the area. And I've had a lot of Wisconsin wine now just since been trying, you know, that, but hadn't heard of Michigan until I interviewed Marie from Slick Wines. She spoke about you guys a couple times, and I was like, ooh, perfect. I need to. I need to talk to them. But I'm curious, before we jump into Michigan wine, your winery called Stranger Wine Company, where did the name of that come from? How did you come up with Stranger? Yeah, I had nothing to do with it. It was definitely Sidney's brainchild. But there's a common connection. I minored in philosophy, and Sydney did too, right? No. Max would just come home from his philosophy classes, like, so stoked that I was like, I need to get in on this. I was very much in the science realm. So I started taking philosophy classes in my final year, and I just. I loved it. The first class that I took was existentialism, and it really changed my life. Not to sound so cheesy, but a lot of the ideas that we were exposed to, namely the school of absurdism, which essentially is the philosophy that there is no inherent meaning to life, and it's up to each and every one of us to create meaning for ourselves. And that that in itself is kind of an act of rebellion against the meaninglessness really appealed to us. And I think Max and I both have really always been people who kind of like to march to the beat of our own drum and create our own path. And so, especially as we were turning our sights towards Michigan and knew that it was, you know, slightly different wine experience than the traditional American winemaker. Stranger really resonated with us as a nod to that school of philosophy and its founder, Albert Camus, whose most famous work is the Stranger. So it's kind of a constant reminder for us to just live a life that's full of meaning. And to us, that meant working together and growing together. And, you know, now we have a little girl who gets to come out to the vineyard with us all the time, and she samples all our grapes, and it's just living authentically is kind of the foundation of it, like, as authentic as we can be, which is true. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Oh, man, that's so good. That's great. Meaning behind the name. I feel like everyone's gonna now think of stranger and think of all these things. All right, so now I wanna dive into Michigan because I need to know more about this winemaking area. Because I definitely admit I am definitely a novice learning about this area. So can you kind of give us, like, a brief overview? I had kind of a few questions around this, like, maybe thinking about some of the AVAs or just letting us know about, you know, what regions is it similar to. But yeah, just kind of a general overview of winemaking terroir in Michigan. Yeah, totally. So in the mitten, which we love to do, Right. There are two parts of Michigan. There's the up and the mitten. So in the Mitten, there are five federally recognized ABAs. You have the very first one in Michigan, which is the Fenville ABA up in Allegan County. That is a sub ABA within the Lake Michigan shore, aba. And that dictates southwest Michigan wine growing. And then famously, you have the Traverse City area that is broken up into two distinct areas. Old Mission Peninsula on the east side and the Leelanau Peninsula on the western side. And then you have Tip of the Met, which is the tip of the mitt. And there are a lot of really great wineries up there. So they all differ based on climate, soil, microclimate, mesoclimate, all that, specifically with us down here in the Lake Michigan shore, where we grow. Fenville was the third registered AVA federally in the United States of America, prior to even Napa Valley. And then Lake Michigan Shore was after that in 1987, and then shortly after that as well. All the northern Old Mission and Leelana. And then Tip of the Mitt was the most recent one. Wow. Okay. So these have been around for a while. I mean, it's the same thing as, like, wasn't the first one was either in Ohio or. I'm, like, blanking on where the Missouri. There we go. I was like, I know. It was a state you wouldn't think of. Yeah. And Michigan, we've been commercially growing vinifera wine grapes since 1968, but growing in Michigan because of Concords and juice grapes. We've been growing it since the mid-1800s. And Michigan has an extremely rich history in agriculture. We're the second most agriculturally biodiverse state in the lower 48. It has a really cool, cool history. So we've Been doing it for a while, and the history is strong. The only thing that has hindered us has been, you know, the ability to make the quality wine out of the beautiful fruit that we grow. And that's changing and has been changing for 20 years. Interesting. And I think the vastness of it all, when we've been in other wine regions, the AVAs are definitely broken up into kind of smaller chunks to designate different growing areas. And, you know, even for us being in the Lake Michigan shore, technically, you can drive, like, over an hour to an hour and a half and still be in the Lake Michigan shore Ava. So I know that Max, in collaboration with a few other individuals in the wine industry over here, have actually been petitioning for new sub abas. And I think that we're going to be a cool region to watch in the next decade or so, as I think a lot of that's going to start to happen. You know, people are recognizing that while we all can grow really great stuff, we still. There's a joke in Michigan that if you don't like your soil, throw a rock and dig another hole. Like, the soil types vary so much. Climate from site to site varies so much. So I think that we're gonna see a lot more AVAs pop up in the coming years. Yeah, I feel like that'd be helpful, too. As wine drinkers, at least for me, it's nice to know, like, kind of what. What to expect just by, like, a lot of times you can look at the region on it right in the ava. And so the smaller you can make that versus, like, if it's a very large Ava, it's kind of like, okay, well, if I'm having a chardonnay from here or something like that, it would be like, okay, well, first of all, the winemaking will make a difference. But if it's that large of an Ava, the grapes are going to be so different from one to the other, so I have no idea what to expect. So the smaller you go, the more it can be like, okay, this sub ava generally makes this style of wine, or, you know, you understand it. Get to know a little more. Yeah, a hundred percent. We've only been here for six years, technically, in Michigan, Stranger has been around for five. But I've tasted most of the wines from, I think, almost every winery in the state now, and even ones that are 40 minutes away from each other. So, like, bone to the top of the Cote Nuit. Like, very tiny. Yeah. Massive difference in every single variety. And so it's just exciting. You know, it's great. Yeah. Okay, so talk a little bit about, just for those that sometimes it's nice to compare it to regions that we might be familiar with. Are there regions in the wine world that are a little more well known that you would compare Michigan to? Or at least your area? I know, I'm like, you're like, I just told you it was diverse. I can't compare it to one place. How about where? Where you make wine. Totally. Yeah. Wait, I know you think this is an ad, but it's not, so don't hit Skip. I have a small favor to ask. Here's the truth. I will never charge you to listen to this show, but every episode takes time and money to create. So if this podcast has helped you pick a better bottle, learn something new, or just kept you company, would you consider becoming a paid subscriber? You can show your Support for just $3, $5, $8, or $10 a month to say thanks. Every single supporter gets a shout out on the next episode I record. And if you choose the $10 tier, you actually get to pick a future episode topic. Setting up a subscription is a great way to show your love for the show. Just click the link in the description right now. Thank you for listening, supporting, and being part of my wine loving community. Now, let's get back to the show. So comparisons have been tough, I'd say, as we're growing more and more proud of where we grow and make wine. Right. Like we make Michigan wine. And that's something we're really sticklers about. But if you look at like parallels in the wine world, there's the 45th and the 42nd, and so like, you know, Champagne, Burgundy, Bordeaux, and then Spain and northern Italy. But the difference here is we don't have the Gulf Stream to warm everything up. Right. So down here in the southwest, I think we can look at soil types. We have glacial moraine soils, glacial till, lots of loam and sand and granite and clay. So you can look to regions like Jura. You can look to regions like Valai in Switzerland. The southern facing aspect sub avas in Ontario, I think have a lot of similarities with us. Southern parts of Germany, like the Franken and Baden and Rheinhessen. Yeah, I mean, I could keep going, but like, let's talk Burgundy. We would be like Macon. We would be Bone, Savigny, Le Bone for pinots and then Bordeaux for our cab savs and Loire for our cab francs. If we want to do bigger regions. Sure. Okay. Interesting. I feel like when I think of because, again, being from the Midwest, like, I know one of the main challenges of growing grapes there is, like, the colder temperatures. But it's sounding like, you know, you guys aren't quite in the same comparison as, like, I would have thought, like, you know, a little more northern. But like you said, following kind of the parallels, it's more southern Germany, and it's more like in Macon that's, like, more southern Burgundy. So you're not quite as cold as, you know, especially up in Chablis, but even Cote du Bone. And I guess I want to get to, like, is that a challenge? The. The cold temperatures, or what challenges do you run into with growing grapes and winemaking in Michigan? What challenges? Don't. Yeah, I think. Yeah, okay. I'm talking so much, honestly, I will throw the microphone to Max. He's definitely been taking on a lot more of the viticultural responsibility in the last several years. You know, I do think that you're not wrong. One of the most common associations with Michigan and our climate is that we're too cold to grow specifically vinifera. That's a question we get a lot with our consumers is like, oh, isn't Michigan mostly hybrids or mostly sweet wines? And that's a little bit of a misconception. The cold weather events here, you know, we do get the polar vortexes every few years, which can honestly take out some of our vines. It can take quite a toll on them. But generally speaking, with the snowfall that we get and the insulation that it provides and then the warming from the lake, we do have a really unique ability to maintain vineyards. I mean, our vineyard is boasting vines that are, like, 36 years old. They've survived all those weather events. And so, you know, is our vineyard without problem? No, absolutely not. But I think it's a great demonstration that we have the ability to really grow things like that. I think some of the other issues we face, it's also dependent on the year. You know, this year we had a really dry, droughty year, which actually ended up kind of being favorable for the grapes. Mostly. It did arise some issues, but then there are years where it's really warm and wet and humid, and that can obviously create a lot of fungal pressure, you know. Yeah, it's like the thing. It's the winters that's our biggest thing. But it's like any grape growing in most regions, unless you're in, like, Corsica or flipping a dry desert like the Sierra Nevada is like, you're going to deal with fungal pressures no matter What, So it's very comparative to Burgundy, Bordeaux, Italy and what they do. So powdery mildew, downy mildew, Botrytis, Saurot, just vine diseases, you know. And like the reason that we have those winters is again because of that Gulf Stream. We do not have that. And that is what makes Europe, you know, a thousand year old or plus growing region because they don't have to deal with stuff like this. And I, I personally think one of the, one of the biggest fears for us as growers is not even necessarily the winter. And correct me if you feel differently, but I kind of feel like as we approach Bud break in that like late April, May time, we can get some really late season frost here and that can be a little bit scary cuz that can kind of fry some of our buds and impact our fruit set. But we've been very lucky that so far there hasn't really been any event that's been wildly detrimental to production this time of year. And we've learned a lot in Michigan over the last, I'd say seven to 10 years of pruning techniques, growing techniques during the season and even harvest decisions to help those buds be lightened enough in the spring to not pop, which is great. But again, here in Michigan, I think the biggest underlying thing is site selection. It matters so much about the specific factors that go into a site that, you know, we have a four week longer growing season than the Willamette Valley here. Yeah, we can get Tannat to 25 Brix if we really want to. We can ripen Zinfandel and Sangiovese and Dolcetto and Barbera. It's wild, right. So it's really about making sure that we farm these things right in the region that we're farming them. And looking towards winter, it might be May, but we're thinking about the winter. That is fair. It just got me thinking a little bit. So I'm out here in Washington and so I've been over to Walla Walla and I know, you know, as a region that like is normally very hot during the summer it has desert like temperatures, but then in the winter it can get hit with pretty cold, you know, pretty cold temps. And they've lost a lot of their vineyards in the past because of that, that cold. And I'm curious since you guys, you know, you mentioned like some of your vineyards have like 30 plus year old vines. Is there anything specific or in particular that you do in the winter to protect the vines that they survive? Yeah, it's what we do during pruning, not in the winter. Okay, so in Washington, you guys have the typical rootstock graft with a long trunk and a head for either cane or cordon. Right. You guys hill up in Washington, moving dirt to cover that graft union. So because we can get so cold here in Michigan, we do not have mature trunks like many major wine regions. We do a very unique training system. The Finger Lakes does it too, but it's head trained, so our heads are only this high off of the ground, and we build spurs, long arms that we then cane prune off of. So it's head trained cane prune vines. And so that allows our heads to be really low, to be covered by snow, but it's also so low to the ground that it's always warmer down there during the winter. So we will always be guaranteed the lower buds will be saved or we'll have latent buds in the head that will push. Yeah, okay. All right. That makes sense. Honestly, it sounds a lot like there's a winemaker in Walla Walla that does low goblet trained vines in it and then. Yeah, basically, like, that way she can bury the whole thing rather than just the trunk of it. Smart grower. Yes. Yeah. She. She learned quickly. She came from California and then was like, this is way different weather. Different weather out here. Yeah. So that's how we prevent it. And also, I. One last thing. Sorry to ramble, but harvest timing is really big, and we've been learning that through some major players in the wine world, where if you can have like, a lower tonnage yield or you ask the vine to do less. So like a ton and a half to two and a half tons per acre for those Europeans, if they listen to the podcast, like 45 to 56 hectoliters per hectare, the vine is ripened earlier physiologically and sugar wise, so you're not getting any kind of, like, premature flavors. And the vine has more time to shut down for the winter. And the longer process it has without an energy sink, which is the fruit, the more it can focus on storing those carbohydrates and those sugars which are so important to being winter ready. So, yeah, in the varieties that are more winter tender, like Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, we're harvesting them mid September, but with 23 brix and 3.3 pH acid, because we don't ask too much from the vines. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so interesting of just like, all the things you think about more than just like, this is how it can survive. The winter, like, in my head, I'm like, okay, so, like, do you bury them? That's, like, the only thing I'd think of. And there's all these other things that can go into it and. And help the vines. We've talked a lot about. You've mentioned a lot of grapes, and one of my questions was going to be, what grape varieties do you think Michigan does well? And which do you think deserve more attention? And I'm realizing this might be a longer answer than I was originally expecting. I think we could nail it. I feel like I've heard you talk about this for, like, three hours. Yeah. 29 varieties are grown in the Lake Michigan shore, which I think is vinifera, which I think is really. Oh, yeah. We personally, you know, I always say when I'm in the tasting room, if Max could really only showcase one of our wines and kind of highlight one of the grapes we work with, it's always Pinot Noir. It's a grape that, in our humble opinion, doesn't get enough respect here in Michigan. And, you know, as Max has talked about, we have the ability to grow it and get that perfect chemistry for Pinot. So that's one that I think immediately comes to mind for me. But it's always ever changing, too. There's a lot of varieties that we work with. For example, Kerner is a grape that I had never really had or worked with until 2024. We did lose our crop down here in the south, and we had the opportunity to work with a grower up in the northern part of the state. And that's a grape that really blew my mind, and I'd love to see a little bit more of that planted. But you have a lot of ideas of your own, too, for sure. I think what we do well is Pinot Noir. The Pinot family. We do great with those anywhere in the state, which I love. Right. It's not just about the Southwest. Like, all of Michigan can grow those varieties on the major growing regions. Sauvignon Blanc, we do incredibly here, and a lot of people are championing that recently. Cabernet Franc, obviously, like all the Bordeaux varieties are just stunning here. Gruner, Botliner, Gruner. There are a lot that we do really well that are suited for our climate. Ones that don't get enough attention. I mean, Gruner is one of them. It does not get enough attention. We should plant a lot more of that. Viognier, Syrah, Marsan, Roussanne, those. They make stunning wines here, especially Viognier I think those are ones that don't get enough play. People have been growing, like, Ghanaian and stuff in Michigan for a long time, so that's planted enough. But, yeah, Viognier is what I would say, and that's what I love so much about Michigan. We often joke that if you can eat it, drink it, or smoke it, it grows here in Michigan. And I feel like if you work with growers, you know, our Viognier is fruit that we buy in from Domain Berrien, who've been around for a really long time. Jake and Amy, who are running it over there right now, really know what they're doing. And the fruit we get from them is just. It's beautiful. And it's exciting that we get to kind of tap into all of these different networks of growers and sets of knowledge and really have the capacity to produce and make so many different styles of wine that are all, in my humble opinion, really, really fantastic. It's definitely a very different project, but we were even approached by one of our favorite wine bars last year to make a pet net out of Canada Scrapes, which is a table grape. And, you know, we are pretty strictly of a Nifera house. Nothing against hybrids, nothing against any of those, but it was a really unique opportunity for us to make a very different wine. And I think that one has also blown our mind. Like, it's. It's weird. It's weird, but it's cool. And we're like, wow. Like, are we gonna be making table green wine? I think I'm gonna plant some. And so, I don't know. I think Michigan is really a region that. Because it kind of has this, like, wildness to it, and people don't have strict ideas of what comes from Michigan, we have a lot more flexibility to be fun and playful with what we produce. And I think, you know, experimenting is really worthwhile. And not every experiment is going to turn out great, but for us, so far, so good. Yeah, you know, we're going to experiment with Chenin Blanc, Trousseau, Poultard, Arnaz, these things that I'd love to Trollinger Portage. It would be really cool to. To do that and do it more of, like, a field blend style. Yeah, well, that makes a lot of sense because you mentioned Jura as, like, one of the regions that you're kind of similar to. Right. So those are kind of wines I often. Or grapes I associate with. With the Jurassic. Well, I'm curious, too. Before we get into. I want to talk about winemaking kind of after this, your winemaking style. But talking about growth potential, I know you've already mentioned a lot of different things for Michigan. You know, where do you see the largest growth potential for Michigan wine and how do we get it, you know, out there for like. Because at least for me, you know, I still think of Finger Lakes before I think of Michigan wine. How do we. How do we change that? Or what do you. Where do you see the changes happening there? I think it comes down to three things mainly. Obviously it's a big bag, but if we could boil it down to three things. Michigan, the wine industry in Michigan, and the craft beverage industry in Michigan. We need more direct support from the state, which is why the Finger Lakes was able to become what it was able to become, because the New York Grape Wine foundation is funded through the state and they're incredible in promoting their local craft beverages. So if we can see that and get some investment from the government for marketing and advertising, that would be huge. I think the second thing is bringing in more talent from around the world and around the United States that can use this like awesome world class quality fruit and turn it into world class quality wine. Michigan, unfortunately, over the last 40 years, but mainly the first 30, it was a lot of sweet wines, it was a lot of fruit wines. And even when dry wine styles were being made commercially in the lower part of the state and the upper part of the state, dry wines were not poo pooed, but they weren't championed. And I think championing of dry wine styles, method champenois styles, and becoming a bit more serious on the wine quality would help tremendously. And then the other biggest growth potential is people taking the leap into Michigan. And from what I've seen personally as a consultant and through friends that have moved here, if you guys step on the dirt, dig a couple piles, you will know instantaneously from an agricultural standpoint that we are in a very special place here. I think we're at a very unique turning point in Michigan, too. One of the things that I've always loved so much about the Michigan wine industry is, you know, a lot of the people who really kicked this industry off are people who maybe grew up on generational family farms and decided to convert some of the farm to wine grape production. And they kind of have this like, hell, yeah, let's just make some wine attitude, which I admire. I think it's. It's what makes this area so soulful. Yeah. Without maybe having a little bit more education or technical training, it maybe didn't always lend itself to wines that would be comparable to some of the regions that have those generations and history of that training being passed down. So we're at this really interesting point now where a lot of the growers and producers are kind of aging out, frankly of the industry. And we're seeing things shift where a younger generation, a lot of them who have experience maybe out west or we know people who graduated from the school in Bordeaux or who've worked harvest kind of around the world that are coming to Michigan and bringing the kind of technical information and a unique lens of winemaking to really start projects here. And I think that that's what we're going to see more of. I think when we look at Michigan wine in 10 years from now. I think we're going to a lot of really passionate small producers. I'm not going to be surprised if some of the bigger houses that are struggling with climate problems out in California and, or Oregon and Washington start turning their sights here as a more sustainable, growing region. But since we've started Stranger Wine Company, we've been very fortunate to be in kind of a, a class of other people who have started projects. I mean, I can think of like up north, we have folklore Wine Insider who is growing and making wine. 4 sous brim beverage poet Sun. We have friends down here starting another world wine. And so it's like every year you get more and more and more and it's, it's really exciting. We are very, very much of the opinion that a rising tide will raise all of our ships. And so seeing that energy come here, I think is what's really going to change the Michigan wine industry. And who knows how it's going to go. But if I was a betting woman, I would say that we're going to be pretty notable and we're going to be coming out with some really world class wines that are going to really challenge the domestic perception of Michigan in the coming decade. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that doesn't surprise me with everything you're talking about. I know, at least for me when I'm listening, I'm like, I need to go get some Michigan wine. I had no idea all this was going on and need to try this. But I think that's, that's very representative of how a lot of, and truthfully us, even like a lot of people don't recognize that. And I can't blame you. And I think that's one of the most fun things we love when people come into the tasting room that are Michigan wine skeptics, they're like, I don't like wine from Michigan. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me blow your mind. Right? They always blow your thoughts. I'm so sorry to interrupt you though. No, no, you're good. No, I was just saying I think it sounds like a lot of like, you know, you had the passion in Michigan, which I think is something that so many people are looking for in wine regions now. You know, so many settled wine regions not to, you know, I have some, some lovely wineries in Napa that I love, but it's also a very like, you know, like everything's really expensive. They kind of have to make things that will sell really expensive. They know, you know, what they need to do. And they may have lost some of that passion because it's a, they gotta like make the money to be able to be there. And so being able to have that passion and like you said, doing smaller projects. And now it sounds like with the passion, it's now combining more of that technical experience and knowing what to do then with the great grapes. That's something you mentioned earlier where you're like, we just need people who know how to make good wine with the amazing grapes that we have here because grapes do 90% of the work anyway. Right? Exactly. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. You can learn more about Stranger Wine Company and order their wines at www.strangerwineco.com. if you love this episode as much as I did, I would so appreciate it if you could take a quick second to rate it, leave a review and share it with a wine loving friend of yours. It would mean the world to me. And just recently I set up a way for you to support the podcast even more. If you are interested in supporting this podcast financially and helping me keep this going every single week, you have an option just go down and check in the show notes to become a paid subscriber. Paid subscribers get a shout out in the next episode that I record and if you are supporting me, $10 or more a month, you will get to select an episode. You just let me know what you want me to talk about in next week's episode. You'll hear part two of my interview with Max and Sydney where we talk a little bit more about the winemaking. This episode was very focused on the viticulture and the growing of the grapes. Next time we're going to talk about the winemaking and they're going to give you their recommendation for the three wines that that they feel like best represent Stranger Wine Company. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at corkandfizz on Instagram. Cheers.