German Wine Isn’t What You Think (Part 2)

Ep 155

Most people think they know German wine, but they’re only seeing a small part of it.

If you immediately think of sweet Riesling or those super cheap bottles at the grocery store when you think of German wine, you’re not alone. That’s what most people think. But it’s not the full picture and, honestly, it’s why so many really good wines get overlooked.

In this episode, I’m sitting down again with Lisa Tupetz, importer and founder of Tupetz Wine Connection, along with German winemaker Max from Weingut Greiner, and we’re talking about what’s actually happening with German wine right now. We talk about how winemaking has changed over time, why this lesser-known region in the Black Forest is worth paying attention to, and what makes these wines different from what you might expect. We also get into how wine makes it from a small winery in Germany all the way to a shop or restaurant here in the US, because it’s not nearly as simple as you’d think.

You’ll walk away with a much better understanding of what to look for, what’s worth trying, and why German wine deserves a spot on your radar.

If you’ve been skipping over German wine or assuming it’s all the same, this might change that.

Thank you to our exclusive sponsor, First Bottle Wines, for sponsoring this episode. Go to www.firstbottlewines.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 10% off your order! (And be sure to sign up for their mailing list so you never miss a bottle!)

Connect with Lisa:

Website - www.tupetzwine.com 

Instagram - @tupetzwine

Connect with Max:

Website: weingut-greiner.com

Episode Highlights:

• How winemaking evolves from first vintage to today
• Why the Black Forest region creates unique wines
• How forests impact vineyard climate and wine style
• The real process of importing wine into the US
• Why small producers struggle to get distribution
• How German wine perception is shifting in the US
• The difference between sweet and dry Riesling demand
• What “GG” wines actually mean on a label
• What it actually takes to build a wine import business
• Why distribution is one of the biggest challenges in wine

Transcript

0:00

If you love discovering top class wine at everyday prices, today's sponsor, First Bottle Wines is going to be your new favorite place to shop. First Bottle Wines is a Napa based online wine store with the same killer deals as their sister company Last Bottle, but with hundreds of bottles to explore. I'll share more later in the episode, but for now go to firstbottlewines.com and use code corkandfizz for 10% off. Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host Hailey Bowman and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total court dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. Today you'll be listening to part two of my interview with German winemaker Max of Weingut Greiner and importer Lisa2Petz. If you haven't heard part one, I highly recommend pause this episode. Go listen to 154 first. We will be here for you when you get back. As a reminder, Lisa2Pets is someone that might sound familiar. She's been on a past episode before the part one and you're like, of course she has been. No, no, no. But she's been before that. But this time she's brought along one of her winemakers, that is Max from Weingart Greiner in Germany. Max makes wine in a small, lesser known part of Germany that we're just going to call the Black Forest region. He says it the best way. I never can say it correctly. His winery is fully biodynamic, which we're going to break down. And of course Lisa is the person who helps get these kinds of wines from a small family estate in Germany all the way to the wine shops and to your table here in the US or wherever you're listening. In today's episode, we're going a layer deeper. We're going to talk about how Max's winemaking style has evolved over time, but also what stayed constant for him and why A region like the Black Forest region deserves a spot on your wine radar. And we're also going to pull the curtain back on what actually happens after the wine is made. All right, let's dive in. I want to go back kind of like thinking historically, Max, for you, from your first vintage to now. And I mean, you can count your first vintage with your winery, or you can count that Pinot Noir you made when you were 16. But how has your style evolved and what core principles have. Have stayed the same for you? In the first vintage, we have, per wine, only one barrel. Yeah. And you have only one chance. It was crazy. Now we make from every white wine or single vineyard wines, more barrels. Then we can make work with one barrel like this, and with the other, like this one, we make more with no oxygen. The other one, we try oxy style, and then we can work with another barrels at the end in the cube. And I think that's the big difference to the first vintage. When you produce only 3,000 bottles, it's a very big difference than now. Right. You. You basically have the opportunity to experiment with more things, make different styles. And then even within that, if you're doing. I know what's common is, you know, you might do something different with each barrel, but then you might end up combining the barrels at some point to, you know, end up what you bottle. Yeah. And that's when we make the. When we make the Cuvee, then we use. For Pinot Noir, we can exam, as example, we use only the three best barrels, and the other three or four barrels we make in the estate wine. And at the beginning, this doesn't work. There we have only one barrel, and this was the Wu can barrel. The results that we get at Pinot Noir, we get every year better. But also in the estate wines, because there we make the Grand Cru. They are not perfect, but they are also very good. We put in the interstate wine. Yeah. Yeah. It basically just. Yeah. It gives you more room to play with. And then the. The wines, it's not just like that one. All right. This is everything. No, no pressure here. I mean, there's still pressure in making wine. I feel like every time it doesn't matter, but at least you have a little more space. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Just a quick reminder, you are not on my mailing list yet. What are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show. All right, so one more thing I want to talk about with the region. So I should have looked this up ahead of time, but I still wouldn't have said it. Right. So where your winery is based on is a region called Margareland. Yeah, totally not saying that. Right. What for you is easier the Black Forest area. Okay, great. Easy. The Black Forest area. Can you tell? Yeah, I feel like this is a. You know, when I think Germany, and I'm sure for many wine enthusiasts, you know, you think Moselle, you think Pfalz, you think rhinehuis. Like I'm thinking of those regions. I haven't heard of this region. Can you tell me a little bit more about it and what kind of sets it apart as a wine growing area? Yeah. The Margrave land is part of Baden of the area. Baden Baden is very famous for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay and sometimes Pinot Gris. And we are completely in the southwest from Germany to the border to Switzerland and France. And we have on one side we have the Rhine river around. We are five minutes away from our vineyards. And on the other side, directly to the vineyards, we have the Black Forest and in this area, our vines. And for me, it's one of the nicest area all over the world. In summer you can go to swim on the wine or some little lakes. And in the winter you can go to skiing in the mountain. It's all one to half hour by car. It's crazy. And in the middle we have our wines, vineyards and yeah, it sounds like, so definitely like a. A warmer region than since you're in the southwest. Right. So would that be slightly warmer than what people think of with like the Moselle or those regions of Germany? Yeah. Normally we are in the southwest, we are a little bit warmer, but our wines are very close to the forest. The forest works like a fridge. Every evening comes to cold winds from the forest. And our winery is 400 meters high. But our highest vineyard, the Pinabulcan, is on 500 meters high. And this vineyard is completely in the forest. There's around the vineyards of forest. And these are very special microclimates. Yeah, yeah. There are so much single vineyards who are very interesting or very special. Because of this, we have next year, year we have, I think five single vineyards, Pinot Noir, so it's crazy. Yeah. And everyone is completely different to the other one. It's. Yeah. Really crazy. So it's interesting. I haven't heard a lot of vineyards being next to forests. Like, I hear a lot about, like, oh, if you're by the river, the river helps moderate temperature. Or if you're by, you know, a large body of water, you get the sea breeze. If you have mountains, they block the wind. So it sounds like by the forest, you get cool winds in the night. Are there any other major benefits to being next to the forest? No, but I think this is the important thing. Yeah, definitely. Okay, Interesting. I think that's a. It's a fun area, and it's fun to get to try things from a different area. Yeah. For me, maybe it's one of the important things is the forest is always an area where you have a lot of animals. And for me, forest always room with reading. Yeah, yeah. And when you are wines directly to. To a forest, it's a very different feeling there. Yeah. Yeah. In the morning, you have a lot of birds, and it sounds. Yeah. Completely different than when you have only wines in your area. True. Right. When you're looking out and all you're seeing is just, like, vineyard versus, like, here, you have more, again, kind of going into that. I feel like that's that biodynamic principle of, like, the vineyards are part of the land. They're part of what's around them. They're not the only thing that is there. I like that. Okay, I'm gonna switch over a little bit to talking about the process of getting a wine from a small winery in Germany to America, because I think this is so fun that we have, you know, the winemaker plus the person who brings those wines over. So, Lisa, once a wine is imported, so let's say Max's wine is brought over here. You bring it over here. It needs to find its way into stores, restaurants, you know, wine lists. What does that distribution process look like in the US Especially for smaller German producers like Max? Definitely a lot of work, a lot of, like, talking to people, making connections. I started my company. This is my third year now, so it's like, finishing up my third full business year. And because of me coming from Germany, I didn't have a big network, so I had to start from scratch, going out to all those different wine shops, meeting people, going to also to wineries, meeting wine industry people, and just talk to them and tell them what I do and explain who I work with. Because if I would have you Know, chosen certain wineries that already have, like, a big name in the market would have been, you know, very different story. But obviously I chose the ones that no one knew, and I still do. So it's definitely a lot of communication. You have to meet a lot of people constantly going out and about. So I go to wine shops, trying to talk to the wine buyers, set up appointments and meetings, talk about the wines that I import, the wineries explain who I work as a company to. So it was a mix of building my brand and reputation as an importer and the wines that I work with and then also educating about every winery and style and region. So it's kind of like a, you know. Yeah. Several steps involved in getting those wines listed. But as of this year, I actually just signed up with a distributor for California. So that's like, a huge step now for my company as well, to get help in sales. Because until now, that was just me doing, like, all the traveling and being on the road lot. So I do technically live in the Central coast, but I'm barely home. So it's kind of nice that it might change for the next year that I have some more time at home, maybe potentially. We'll see. So, yeah, but get, like, some great support from this amazing distributor here in California. They're called Alluvial. And so we just started talking in September. They just got their first small order. And then we're doing, like, a meeting in January where we'll do a training on German wines in general and then bring some wines and talk about. Yeah. Differences of each winery and the styles and stuff, and introduce all the wineries to them, to the team. And then I will help them and travel across the market. They're able to kind of, you know, book me, reserved me for, like, certain trips. And I would support them and go to different yesterday accounts to. Yeah, just, like, help them in sales. So, yeah, I'm, like, really excited to work with them because they have a team of, I think, almost 20 sales reps. I think it's 19 or something right now. And so, like, 20 versus me. It's like, quite like, you know, it's kind of incredible. Yeah. And they will choose my wines exclusively. So I'll be the exclusive German importer for them. They will use my entire book, and they also want to help me to build my brand as well. So I was talking. We want to talk about two plates of wine as the importer for, you know, those unique, very cool wineries from Germany. And they will have my entire book as well. And then now I just met a distributor from Colorado, actually, because of Max. Max was in New York at the Raw, the Natural Wine show when he was over in America last month. And so I also just talked to Logan about having some of Max's wines as well over in Colorado, too. So I'm, like, slowly growing the distribution side right now in addition to my online business, too. So the wine club that still exists as well, obviously. Right. Because. And it's crazy, like, listening to all this. I don't know, for. For folks that are listening here. I know we talked about. Lisa, in your earlier interview, kind of the. The whole process of how to get wine from outside of the US to the US and into people's hands. Because it's not as simple as just like, okay, we shipped it over. You can buy it now, you know, there's this whole process of, okay, we have the. The importer imports the wine, and then as you're talking about a distributor, this is somebody who actually then is the. Between the importer and then the restaurants and the wine shops. So a distributor gets it into restaurants and wine shops, and then finally the restaurants and wine shops can get it to you. So you have to go through this whole process. But there is one way for folks who are listening if they want to try Maxis wines along with other really great small German producers. You sell directly from your website, right, Lisa? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So all the wines that I import on my online shop, and there are quite a few wines because of my wine club, too, that wouldn't even get into certain wine shops or restaurants just because it's, like, a very small volume. And so, yeah, I have, like, a special selection always. Yeah. Because, like, the fun wines that I want to show those to, like, you know, wine lovers and, like, part of my wine club or online shop, too, that they can buy, but it's, like, too small of a volume to actually have them distribute across California. No. Sure. All right. I'm going to go a little more general here. We're going to kind of take, like, a broad look on things. And I'm curious from both of you, how do you think the narrative of German wine is changing in the US And I'm curious because I know, Max, you've been to quite a few events here across the US do you feel like the German wine narrative is changing? Today's episode is brought to you by First Bottle Wines, the sister site to Last Bottle that lets you explore way more incredible wine all in one place. If you've ever loved a bottle from Last Bottle and wished you could find more like it. That's exactly why First Bottle exists. It's where collectors and everyday drinkers go to find their favorites for less. First Bottle is run by the same Napa based buying team who tastes over 50,000 wines a year. Which means everything you see, from legendary producers to hidden gem daily drinkers has already been vetted by the pros. And because they source directly from wineries and importers, the prices are often far below retail. I love that it feels like a real wine lover's shop. Tons of options, great vintages and bottles for everything from a Tuesday night pasta night with the girls to a dinner party with your in laws that you need to impress. There's no fluff, no gimmicks, just remarkable wine chosen by experts plus free shipping when you buy six bottles or more. So head to firstbottlewines. Com and use code corkandfizz for 10% off your order. And have fun browsing because this site is dangerous in the best way. I don't know who it was before, but I but with everyone I talk they are very open for German wines. And I think in every region you can produce very good wines or bad wines at the end. It depends by the winemakers or the viticulture team. And when the US people try my wines, they like it. That's all it takes, right? You just gotta anytime you get a chance to try the wines. I feel like anytime you can get people to do that, it's the easiest way to be like whatever preconceptions you had on this wine, just try it first and then talk to me about it. Okay. Lisa, how about you? Have you noticed a change in the German wine narrative across the last few years? Definitely. At least. So when I started, everyone the most people were just like, okay, you work with like sweet wines and German wines was kind of like not really a thing or you wouldn't really see much about German wines. If you paid a little bit more attention, you would find some great wines, especially on the east Coast. There are a couple like big importers on the east coast who do amazing job. They've been around for many, many years, like from Boden. So it's amazing what they've done over the past years. But still, I think maybe it's also because California, it's like even further away from Europe that the great wines maybe didn't quite make it out here or just like didn't receive the recognition they should have gotten just based on what else was out there. Because California is also a really heavy wine country. So it's like, where do you fit in? What do you like to drink? And for a very long time, many wines in the grocery store. Even until today when you go to Trader Joe's, it's like a blue bottle Riesling, which is like sweet from the Mosel Valley, like really stereotypical wine. And it's like 4.99 or something. I'm like, is this like impossible? Like, why is this still happening? But. And then even like a few years ago when I went to all those wine shops, I had so many small retail wine bars asking me for an off dry Riesling cabinet. So that was the only style that they associated with German wines. Which is so sad because obviously as Mike just said, like every wine region, every wine country can make amazing wines and also like, you know, bad. But there's like so much more to it. So to me it was very important. Now just like talk about different grape varieties and styles and wineries and producers especially. There's a good varieties like Scheffler now too and Eitling and whatnot. So it definitely changed a lot. And at the beginning I bought a few sweet out wines too because everyone was like, oh yeah, you know, I love German sweet Riesling. And then it's like weird and I haven't sold them. I still have one of my like sweet Riesling sitting there. And I was like, okay, great, I have one customer now and she gets one. But every single wine club should put one in there because I know she likes it. But it's like not a style at all that I'm selling maybe because of like the following I built around my company. And like people know that I don't drink sweet wine, so they kind of follow me and drink the wine that I like to drink. So really sling the Grand Cru, like the great growth. The GGS is actually something that I realized over the past couple of years. And like I did like sit like online marketplaces and stuff that I have group chats and stuff with and I talk to people like wine buyers and collectors. Everyone is looking for the dry Riesling high end single vineyard aged wines and not. So I've been like building more and more on those portfolio side as well on my end. So when I go to Germany, I buy specifically all the vintages now too. I try to get older ones, get like the high end single vineyard wine. So maybe it's just me like finding the right people now as well to show these wines to. But my Main market right now is definitely the single vineyard wines. Even like, Pinot, Chardonnay, and especially Riesling. And I think also gg, the great growth. If you know a little bit about German wines, it always means it's a dry Riesling. It's kind of from a single vineyard, and you can only make one per vintage per winery. So these are, like, a few key points to know about a Riesling gg. So if you want the dry Riesling, the GG is what you look for in the label. Because German labels are difficult to understand sometimes, obviously, because they're German. And, like, even for a German native speaker, it's like, what are they doing? I've heard the thing, and I do agree with, like, German labels are some of the best because they label very clearly. The problem is that it's all in German, which is very overwhelming, at least. Clearly, but not clearly. Yeah, right, right. They're like. We use, like, we have these specific terms, and we put all these on the label, and it's telling you what, you know, what it means about the wine. And it's like, problem is, I don't know what those things mean, but gg, that feels like something I can look for. I can find that on a label. There you go. The longer the word and the label, the better the wine. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so before we move on, I always end these podcasts with what I call a speed round. It's not like you have to buzzer in and answer fast. It's just, like, quick questions and whatever comes to your mind first. But I'd first like to know. And, Lisa, I feel like we've kind of covered this for you, but I'll ask you again after I asked Max. But what is next for each of you? So, Max, are there any specific wines on your radar you're looking to make? I know you mentioned lots of single vineyard Pinot, but what are some other things you're kind of looking to do in the future? Well, we have. I have so much ideas, it's crazy. We planned it in 2023 in one of our vineyards that we get last year. The first vintage, they will bottle in a few weeks or a few months. But in the future, we get more focused on sparkling wines. Right now, we have only two sparkling wines. One Cuvee from Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, and Pinot Mer. It's like the Champagne style. And then we have a Pinot Rose without sulfur, without sugar. Two years ago, we start with Chardonnay, Blanc de Blanc from A very cool vineyard. And this year we make a Pinot Noir blonde Noir, single vineyard. But it's not a single vineyard. It's the cuvee from our Grand Cruz where we start. We harvest very early, our Grand Cruz for sparkling wine and pick there only the very compact grapes. And then the grapes who are not so compact, we stay in the vineyards. And this harvest, where we have harvest three weeks later for red wine and. Yeah. And then my wife makes some Pinot sparkling wine. And. Yeah, interesting. So a big. A big push for sparkling wine, it sounds like. And all of these are in, like, champagne method. Any of them in, like the Pet Nat style or anything, or. We're going primarily champagne method. Yes. And we make all the process at our winery. Normally in Germany, you produce only the Grund wine, the basic wine for the sparkling wine, and then you bring it to a big sack producer, and he makes the second fermentation for you. But I don't like this because then you have to refrigerate your wines. You have to make stable. And we had then we make three years by a big sac calaray here in our area. And since 2019, we make it by ourselves and the Degasmar, we make winery work sometimes. And then we make our own things with our sparkling wine. Nice. Yeah, definitely having more control over it yourself and getting to. Yeah. And you can go more risk. Yeah, yeah. But when you get good grapes and your wines have time, then it works. Yeah. Exciting. Okay. Fun. I love more sparkling wine. And then. Yes. Lisa, for you, you know, what's next for you? What wines do you hope to bring into the US or how do you hope to continue expanding your import business? But the focus will be for sure building a distribution right now. So I'm very excited to start working with distributor and like, teach the team, get to know the team, work with them, and help have them help me to grow the gym reputation of wines. So that's like, I think, very exciting now and like something that 26 will be the main focus. And I think I will focus on, like, my nine minorities that I've worked with right now. So just added two new ones with Max and also vinegar from the Moza Valley, like some recently gg. Nice. So I have, like, a really cool, I think, broad portfolio right now that I want to focus on right now and just like, create those brands in the market, in the US market. So that's like my main thing for. For next year. And then also hopefully have some time to grow my online presence and following in wine Club, because this is like, where I can buy, as I said earlier, the cool wines for, like, I have some, you know, very fun wines I only buy for the wine club. And that's, like, where I find the. My most joy to use. I think automatically, like, hey, what cool stuff do you have right now? So for next order for next year, I could be like, okay, let's add, like, you know, a few, you know, a few extra things just for the wine club members. And then also for 27, I'm doing a river cruise through sailing in Switzerland, going to Germany, ending in Amsterdam. So let's actually take a really fun wine cruise that I will be the wine expert on for the cruise. And we will drink all my wines that I import to America. But I obviously, you know, just go through the entire portfolio and, like, drink wines. I have some wine makers coming to join me on the boat as well. Like, do, like, some hop on, hum up tastings and stuff. And just being able to show people Germany from my point of view, like, because I grew up in Germany and I have all the insights, I left and traveled across all these places that we're going to cruise during the river cruise, including France, as well as some areas I haven't been to yet. So it'll be like a really fun experience to talk about wine and actually seeing right there where the wine is actually made to. So that's like something for 27 and. Yeah. So then also I want to try to get some of my wine buyers that I work with closely, either from a sales team or other distributors, to come to Germany with me. Yeah. And like, show them more about the wineries and to get a better understanding, actually feel and, you know, get a sense for what it means to be working with your mind. Yeah. Because I feel like it's one thing to hear about, you know, Max talking about the vineyards in the forest, and there's another thing to see the vineyards in the forest and to actually, like, experience that and see that. I feel like that makes such a big difference. Fun. Okay. I love all the ideas. Okay, so to. To finish off, like I said, I do this little speed round, and it basically just means, like, the questions, you could think about them for too long. So just whatever's the first thing that pops into your mind is what I'm looking for. So, for example, the first question is, what is your favorite wine at the moment? What is something you find yourself reaching for? Why don't we do. We'll. We'll start with Max, and then I'll go To go to you, Lisa. Two weeks ago, we were also at Weinfand Berlin, and they would drink a very good shot on it from the euro. Okay. I love it. Very good, but very expensive. But every euro was okay for this wine. Okay. Lisa, how about you? Currently, it's a champagne that is, like, recently discovered from Julian Prilad. It's like a very, very cool champagne. Max and I actually had it too when he was visiting. We went to one of my go to restaurants up here in the central coast, up in Paso lpc. And I was just like, you know which wine I want. So, yeah, he chose the champagne for us. So. Cool. It's like a really amazing Blanc de Noir. Yeah. Okay. All right. How about. What is your go to bottle of wine to bring to, like a dinner party or to share with friends? And Max, I'll start with you again. For me, it's always important that the wine smell that you can drink a lot of the wines because I like to drink wine. And because of that, this wine have mostly less alcohol and a nice acidity. And yeah, I love sparkling wine, but I think it's some Chardonnay. Yeah, yeah, Okay. I love it. Lisa, how about you? Yeah, I think Chardonnay is my go to as well for a party. Just because it's. I don't know. It also depends though, who I'm going to too. Like, it depends on the potty too, if they have. Yeah, no, very much. I know what you mean. You have like the wines for me. Because they don't care. Yeah, they're not bringing the better wine if it's just for me. No, that's the trick that I always tell people, and they're like, what should I bring to a dinner party? I'm like. And if you're really not sure, just bring a bottle that you like because then you know there's a bottle on the table that you would like to drink. Very true. I'll bring. I'll bring chill just in case. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, next question. What is the favorite wine region that you've ever visited? And Max, I'm going to make you go outside of. Outside of Baden. But what. What is a favorite wine region that you've visited? Well, for me, it's clear. Tepocunta. Yeah. Burgundy it is. It's hard to get better than that. Lisa, how about you? I actually really enjoyed champagne. Even though it's not beautiful, it's like, it's an interesting area. It's like something you don't really expect, but I really Enjoy. There. That's so interesting. I've heard of so many people wanting to go to Champagne, and I love that you describe it as, like, it's not beautiful, but it's a cool place to visit. It's not. Yeah. I mean, the countryside, like, the landscape, it's like. Yeah, it's nothing. It's like, really flat and it's like, really. I don't know, it's just, like, very different to what we expect, but it's also, like, a lot of rain. And. Yeah, I had a great time. Amazing restaurants. Amazing, amazing Champagne houses, obviously. And I love going through, like, champagne wine lists and, like, read through them and, like, just, like, go by different. Divide the wine list, Champagne list by village. So there's, like, so much to learn just, like, by looking at the wine list. That's why I love going there. But not necessarily landscape. What about Burgundy next year? So I was just going to say, on the flip side, what is a wine region you'd like to visit? So it sounds like. Lisa, Burgundy is on your list. Max, how about you? What is a wine region you'd like to visit that you haven't been to yet? I think that's what is very interesting. For me, it's the vineyards in China. Because I. I can't. I don't have idea how that looks, the wines, but they produce right now very much wine. It's very crazy. And for me, it was very interesting to see this. Yeah, I think that would be. So the thing about, I think especially, yeah, Chinese wine and the. The vineyards there, because I feel like it'd be such a culture shift. It'd be. It'd be a very big change in culture. And I'd be curious to see, like, what of, like, winemaking culture is the same and then what is completely different because it's such a different region of the world. Cool. Okay. What is a favorite wine and food pairing? Like a. Like a go to pairing for. For wine and food. Lisa, I'll go to you first for this one. I keep making Max go first. One of my go tos just because I live by the ocean. It's like oysters. Yeah, oysters. And, like, a nice white wine. Like, Max and I did that too, when he was here. The sauce. I work really well. Salonite work well. Sometimes I go for a dry Riesling, like a gg with, like, oysters, too. But it depends on, like. Yeah. How. Like a younger one. If it's, like, to age, it's, like, too overpowering for the oysters. Sure. It's definitely one that I love to do. Or like steak tartar and like a nice, not like acidic, but like a nice fresh pinot Works really well. Okay, I like that. All right, Max, how about you? Do you have a go to food and wine pairing? Shasla and fondi? Yes. The traditional Swiss. Because chaslaw is a Swiss grape, right? It's a traditional wine. Who you drink for fungi. Yes. Oh, yum. All right, last two questions. If you were given a thousand dollars to spend on wine or a thousand euro, how would you spend that? Would you go for. You don't have to tell me, like, specific bottles, but would you go for like some big, you know, expensive, like just going for like two to three expensive bottles, or would you want to fill up a case for a party? How would you go about spending? And you have to spend the thousand dollars on wine. Lisa, what would you do? Fairly easy, unfortunately, because both of our wines are expensive in America. But yeah, I probably would buy maybe like. Yeah, probably like 3ish, more higher end wines. Like something that I really want to get that I haven't had, you know, yet. I haven't had a chance to try it or something. So that's what I would do. Okay. All right, Max, how about you? In a city in Germany, in Ulm wine shop, Freiheit to call it. And they make every year in the beginning of January in Romanee Conti tasting. Yes. And they can try around 20 bottles Romane Conti. And yeah, this will be a good part, this thousand Euros. How much is the tasting? I think 3,800 US per person. It's crazy. Let's go next year. But he opened their bottles for over€100,000, so. Wow. Yeah. And Romanee Conti, for those that don't know, it's like the. The most famous and the most expensive wine house in Burgundy. So to get to try, I mean. Yeah, I guess that makes sense that the tasting would be very expensive too. Yeah. But it's. You never can try so much of Maniconti at one day, and it's crazy. Wow. Okay. It's a very crazy experience. Yes. That would definitely be one for the books. Okay, last question. What is one wine myth that bugs you the most? We'll have Max go first on this one. What do you mean wine myth? Something that, like, isn't true about wine that people believe. So, like, for example, some of them are like sulfites cause headaches. Oh, okay. Riesling is always sweet. You know, those kinds of things that just like, through marketing or through, you know, people started to believe about wine that weren't true. That I get from the sulfur. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I feel like that's towards the top for many people. Yes. Convincing people that that is not the thing that's causing the headache. It's likely the alcohol or, you know, the alcohol. You have too much. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Lisa, how about you? I mean, I guess I get a sweet wasting thing I have to say, then over and over again, it will always be the. Be the one, probably for me. And then also, yeah, just, like, all the ideas that wine isn't clean unless it's, like, called natural. So that's, like, a thing too. Like, the natural wine thing is, like, one of the most annoying things right now too. I did a tasting of the day with Max, too, when he was here at the new wine shop. It's opening up. It's like a natural wine bar. And I was like, why do you call it natural? Like, you have really good selection. You make wine yourself. You're farmed by nutmeg. Why do you call them natural? And they're like, well, we want to make sure that people understand that we're looking for, you know, clean wines. And I was like, well, that's, like, not a thing. It's, like, so difficult. And I got to be quite natural, but correct. And I was like, I like that. So we. But yeah, I don't. I don't think natural is, like, actually a good term right now, and it's been, like, misused for so many ways, and there's so many bad wines out there right now, and it's crazy. Yeah. Especially in the US there's really no specific definition of it, so you can use it in any way that you want. Really? Yeah. Okay, awesome. Well, we went over a little bit. Hope it's okay with you guys. But thank you so much for joining on the. On the show and for getting talking about your wines, Max, and for talking about the import business. Lisa. We'll make sure to put links all in the show notes for anybody who wants to try the wine. Check out Lisa's website is the best way to find all of these wines to try them. And joining the club is a good way to get into trying some wines that might not and that might not make it on the website. So that's everything I have. Thanks so much for joining, guys. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you very much. Yes. All right. Have a great rest of your evening and a great rest of your days. I know we're on very different, very different time zones. Yes. All right, cheers. Thanks guys. Bye bye. Bye bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. You can learn more about Toupet's wine Connection and purchase Weingut Grainer wine along with many other delicious German wines here in the US at twopetswine Coffee that is T U P E T Z wine dot com and you can learn more about Max's winery directly at weingut-grainer.com link is in the show notes because I know we don't all speak German and know how to spell that. If you love this episode as much as I did and you haven't yet left a review for the podcast, the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast, please just take a quick second. It shouldn't take more than like two minutes. Just write a quick little review. You can do that on Apple Podcasts. And if you'd like to show additional support for this show, you can become a paid subscriber. Of course, I'm always going to offer these episodes free along with the entire backlog. All 150 plus episodes are available to you, but if you'd like to become a paid subscriber, you can click the link in the show notes and be a monthly subscriber supporter. For $10 or less a month, you'll get a shout out in the next episode I record. Plus, if you choose the $10 per month option, you'll get to choose a topic for a future episode. In next week's episode, we're talking wine blends and how they are not automatically inferior to single varietal wines. In fact, some of the most expensive wines in the world are blends. We're going to talk about it. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at corkandfizz on Instagram. Cheers.