What Biodynamic Wine Means (Made Simple) (Part 1)

Ep 154

You’ve probably seen “biodynamic” on a wine label and assumed it’s just another marketing term.

Most people do. It sounds complicated, a little vague, and honestly it’s easy to ignore. But what’s actually happening in biodynamic vineyards has a direct impact on how wine tastes, how it evolves, and why some wines feel more alive in the glass than others.

In this episode, I’m sitting down with Lisa Tupetz, founder of Tupetz Wine Connection, along with German winemaker Max from Weingut Greiner, and we break down why biodynamic wine isn’t just a label and what it actually changes in the glass. 

You’ll hear how soil health, farming decisions, and even things like animals in the vineyard all play a role in the final wine and why the real work of great wine happens in the vineyard, not the cellar. Plus, why some winemakers are willing to take on more risk to farm this way and what they believe it does differently compared to organic practices.

We also get into how these wines are being received in the US, why more drinkers are looking beyond familiar grape varieties, and what to pay attention to the next time you see “biodynamic” on a bottle.

So if you’ve ever wondered whether biodynamic wine actually matters or if it’s just another trend, this episode will change how you think about what actually determines the quality of the wine in your glass.

Thank you to our exclusive sponsor, Last Bubbles, for sponsoring this episode. Download the Last Bubbles app or go to www.lastbubbles.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 10% off your order! (And be sure to sign up for their mailing list so you never miss a bottle!)

Connect with Lisa:

Website - www.tupetzwine.com 

Instagram - @tupetzwine

Connect with Max:

Website: weingut-greiner.com

Episode Highlights:

• What biodynamic wine actually means
• The difference between organic and biodynamic
• How soil health impacts wine quality
• Why biodynamic wines taste more “alive”
• The role of animals and natural systems in vineyards
• How US consumers are responding to biodynamic wines
• Why lesser-known grape varieties are gaining popularity

Transcript

0:00

If you love sparkling wine as much as I do, you'll love today's sponsor, Last Bubbles. They feature one handpicked bottle of champagne, Prosecco, or other bubbly every day at up to 70% off. I'll share more later, but for now, be sure to download the Last Bubbles app or go to lastbubbles.com and use code CorkandFizz for 10% off. Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Haley Bollman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle-based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. Today's episode is a really fun one, especially if you like knowing the story behind what's in your glass, which I'm assuming if you're here listening to this, you might fit into that category. I am joined by Lisa Tupetz of Tupetz Wine Connections, who you may remember from a past episode if you've been listening for a while. And this time she's brought along one of the winemakers that she works with, Max from Weingut Grener in Germany. Max makes wine in a small, lesser-known part of Germany called— this is a mouthful, so I'm going to try my best— it's called Markgrafleerland. Max tells me later that I can just call it the Black Forest region, so that is much easier to say, but it's close to Baden. And this winery, his winery, is fully biodynamic, which we're going to break down in a very real, easy-to-understand way during the show. And of course, Lisa is the person who helps get these kinds of wines from a small family estate in Germany all the way to wine shops and restaurant lists here in the US. So today we're talking about how these wines are actually made, what biodynamic farming is, how Lisa first discovered Max's wines, what it's like for a winemaker to hear these wines introduced to an American audience, and so much more. So without further ado, let's get into the interview. All right, so let's start. One of my favorite ways to start these podcasts, and when I'm talking to anybody who is in the world of wine is what made you fall in love with wine? And I know technically, Lisa, I've probably asked you this question since you've been on the show before, but I would still love an answer from both of you, but I'll go, Max, I'll go to you first. What made you fall in love with wine? When I make a birthday party, I was 16 years old and I have a birthday in the middle of September. And then I ask my dad, say, dad, I need money for my birthday party. I need beer and wine and schnapps. And then he told me, no, Max, you get no money. You get 400 kilos with Pinot Noir. And then, yeah, then I make my first wine and then the wine game starts. Yeah. I love it. Oh my gosh. That is, now that's a fun story of how you got into the wine world. You're like, I just wanted money for beer and wine. He said, no, you can make your own wine and then you can drink that. Yes. I love it. Okay, Lisa, well, how about you? Right. It's not that cool of a story for sure. I love the story of Max. I tell all my new clients in America now too, because I, this is like what you need to know about Max, how he got into wine. For me, it was my trip to New Zealand right after school where I didn't know what I want to do with my life. And I ended up spending some time in New Zealand with my mom's best friend who owned one of the best restaurants and wine bars in New Zealand in Christchurch. And so my first contact with wine was back then with a really amazing French sommelier who taught me a lot about how to taste and drink wine. We kind of started with like sweet wines, like off-dry wines, and then moved our way to the drier wines and everything. And it was just like, this is, you know, very interesting and cool. And then we would do the food and wine pairings too. And then like a visit to a winery out in Bayapora Valley, just outside of Christchurch. And that was like, to me, like my very first time actually visiting a proper winery, seeing vineyards and everything. It was like You know, I come from Cologne, there aren't any vineyards close by, and it's like a heavy beer drinking area. So it was definitely very different, but I was like, yeah, absolutely blown away by the beauty of like, you know, a winery and the vineyard and everything. And I did tasting in this barrel room and I was just like, this is so cool. I do wanna learn more about this. And it's since then I've been in the wine industry. So yeah. Yeah. It really only takes that little thing, right? And then you've kind of caught the wine bug and. You wanna stick with it. Just a quick reminder, if you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show. So I wanna do kind of as a little intro into the wines. I do wanna dive more into the viticulture and winemaking, but I think it's so interesting of having this relationship of having the winemaker and then the importer that brings in, you know, the wines here to America. And so I wanna start with you, Lisa, of what first drew you to Max's wines and made you want to import them? You know, what of his style felt like it was the right fit for your portfolio? I met Max just, I think, a couple years ago, maybe almost 2 years ago by this point, at the trade show, because he works with one of my other wineries that I import already. And so Max actually provides the grapes for the sparkling wine house I'm working with, or one of the sparkling wine houses I'm working with. And it's also like the, you're like the winemaker for them too, right? Like the consultant technically for Max. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's like how we kind of got connected and tasted a couple of wines at a trade show, just kind of like under the table that he brought. And then I was like, hmm, this is actually really cool. And I was like, can I come and visit your winery? Because I do like to see where the wine is made and kind of feel for the person who's, you know, making the wine and especially seeing the vineyards and everything. And I just really enjoyed how his entire lineup is very real and authentic. And there's nothing that is trying to cover something up. There's nothing like no makeup used. Like everything is just like really pure and like You can taste like the, I mean, it sounds stupid, like the terroir, but it's actually like, you can tell the wine is from, everything has like a specific like handwriting to it too. And I just really enjoy wines that are made to impress and like express what they actually are and like what they're about and like show the great variety and where they're from. So I really like enjoyed like the purity of these wines. And so I went back again this year to taste again with him. And I did like another 2 or 3 vineyards and everything. And then, I mean, he's also Demeter certified, but it's like, it's awesome, but also not the main reason why I work with him. Like, to me, I just like the, yeah, the power of the wines and it's like very, very cool. Yeah. I like that. It's the, like the authenticity of the wines and then it's like, oh, and there's this bonus, you're biodynamic certified, which is always a, you know, a great thing to know that we're taking care of the land and the earth of where we're, we're getting the, the grapes from. From. So now I'm curious, I kind of want to flip that question for you, Max. I know you came to visit here in America, or you've been here probably quite a few times, have tried at a trade show as well, but what was it like the first time you heard Lisa describe your wines to an American audience? Did it surprise you at all for like how people received them? No, I don't think so. I think Lisa knows very much about me and my wines, and I told her a lot of our wines, and yeah, she told I think it's really the same to the, to the customers. Is there any difference, do you think, between like talking to an American audience versus like German audience back home? Yeah, in Germany nobody talks about Napa and Chardonnay. It's always, uh, yeah, now we drink Chardonnay, but it's completely different to a Napa Chardonnay. Yeah, we gotta give that caveat here. Everyone hears Chardonnay and they immediately go, oh, you mean like The big, bold, buttery Chardonnay of Napa. Not even that, like, they make that all the time anymore, but it's like the first thing people think of. So whenever you introduce one, you always have to be like, no, no, no. Okay. But I want you to think of something different. Yeah. Same with the Riesling. Oh, it's a sweet one. It's like, no, no, it's not. Yeah. Chardonnay is always big and buttery. Riesling is almost always sweet. And you always have to be like, no, no, no. There's other versions of those. Let me tell you about them. I love it. Okay, well, let's dive deeper into the winemaking process and philosophies at your winery, Max. So specifically, I wanna learn a little bit more about being Demeter-certified biodynamic and what that means. So can you start by just explaining in your own words what biodynamic viticulture really means and how it affects the wines that you make? For me, it was important that we work, um, biology. In the first vintage to 2027, we work only biology. And then I think, why I don't use more tools for get more balanced in our wines? And then we start in 2018 to work with the biodynamic preparation. And that's the only difference to the biology culture we use. When you would like— when you make work only for the certified, then you use one time 500 and one time the Präparat 501, and that's it. You know, when you need it, when you make it only for your certificate. For me, was clear when I would like to make the best wines in the world, I need to work biodynamic because all the big important producers, or yeah, the high-end producers like Romanée-Conti, They are work all biodynamic, you know, and this was for me really clear thing that when you get, when you buy in, um, in a vegetable, in a supermarket, uh, biodynamic vegetable and a normal vegetable, it smells completely different. And the same is by the grapes. And when you have a very tasty grape, you can make very easy, uh, and very good wine. Yes, definitely. I feel like I've heard it from every winemaker is like, the wine is really made out in the vineyard. Like you can't, you can't make a good wine from bad grapes. So you have to start with that. I'm curious for a lot of folks, cause I think some folks that are listening, you'd think biodynamic versus organic. What, what made you go the biodynamic route instead of organic? Or is it kind of end up being both? I think it's both. Yeah. But when you work biodynamic, you have more tools. Yeah. And at the end, you have more in your mind and maybe you look a little bit better to your, to your vineyards or to your, to your grapes. And I think you are a little bit closer to your grapes or to the wines. Okay. All right. This is a big difference. You learn to look better to your grapes. Okay. And what does it look like on like a day-to-day level of being Demeter certified both in the vineyard and in the cellar, what are some of the things that you do to be more connected to the grapes and to, yeah, take care of the, the land? Yeah, right. As example, we have sheep in our vineyards. Yeah. And then you see completely different things. So when the sheep, they eat one grass, they eat another grass they don't eat. And then you think about how grass grows. Grow in your wines. Yeah. And when you work normal in your vineyards, yeah, there are some grass, and then I used, I don't know English, Lisa, the mulcher. Yeah, you can cut the grass with the machine, but when you use sheep, it's completely different thing. Yeah. And then you look very much, or you are more clear what kind of things grow in your vineyards and what is maybe the problem. Yeah. Interesting. So you're like, you're trusting the creatures, essentially the sheep to kind of tell you what's going on in the vineyard. So it's like a certain example. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And I feel like I've also heard of like biodynamics sometimes, especially being fully Demeter certified, there's some mystical elements to it. Yes, of course. Yeah. The biodynamic properties. Yeah. Yes. Is that, so is that something you follow as well? Do you find that that has a great effect on the vines? Yes, of course. Yeah, I work 6 years, uh, in, uh, one of the biggest, uh, biodynamic wineries in, in Germany. And there we work a lot with the ground and with the biodynamic properties. And there we look at one time per year in the ground, we make a hole and look at the structure in this ground. And it was amazing. Yeah. You have 35 centimeters full life. Yeah. And when you normally look in a vineyard, you have maybe 10 centimeters or maximum 20, and then we make the biodynamic fields, we look in the ground, then we go to the neighbor to a biological one, but he works completely the same, but he don't use the biodynamic preparation, but he have only 10 centimeters, 20 centimeters life in his ground, and then the next neighbor was in a normal, a conventional wine field, terrible, because he don't work in the ground, he use only fertilizers and yeah, but the difference between biodynamic and was very extremely in the ground. Yeah. And for me, it's important that we have a very good ground. And when you have a good ground, then your wines grow very good and then you have a good balance and then you have less problems in your vineyard. So, yeah, definitely. I feel like I've heard like what I think about, it's the same, same. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, the proof is there. The proof is there of like, you're like looking at the soil and— because when you think about, I always think about, you know, the best vineyards, like their roots go down pretty far. And so if you can have good soils that go down deeper, it sounds like that is a major benefit to now the quality of your grapes. Yeah. And now when you have a good ground, you can save more water when it's rain. Yeah. And when we have 6 weeks where we're hot and only sunny, then we have enough water in the ground. And 2 years ago, everyone in our region has yellow leaves on his vines, but in our vineyards they are green because we have a lot of more humus in our ground and it's crazier. And this after 7 years. So, wow. Okay. So it sounds like a lot of benefits, but now I have to ask on the flip side, are there any major challenges when trying to farm the grapes biodynamically? Yeah, you have every year more risk, but that's normal. But when you get the fair money for your, for your wines, then the risk is okay. Yeah. And when we have very bad years, then I hope we have in the next year or next two years a good year, and then we can, yeah. Work with this risk. Yeah. It's always so wild to me when you think about other industries of work, you know, you don't talk about like, oh, we're just like, if we have a bad year, hopefully the next year will be better. Like everything relies on like a single year of like, okay, this was a great year, so it's good. And then the next year's like, okay, that wasn't as great. We'll just hope for better in the next year. And how much you, you have to rely on stuff. I'm curious, Lisa, you mentioned that Biodynamic is not something that like you absolutely like would go for. That's not the first reason you would look to a winery, but have you found that it is a benefit when talking to American consumers or when selling wines to be able to note that they're biodynamic? Is that a plus or are people still learning what that means? Today's podcast is brought to you by Last Bubbles, your online destination for incredible sparkling wine at unbelievable prices. If you know me, you know I'm a total sucker for a great bottle of bubbles. Sparkling wine should not be saved for special occasions. Instead, I think you pop bubbly to make the occasion special. Plus, it pairs with everything from oysters and caviar to popcorn on Tuesday nights. So it's honestly a no-brainer to keep a bottle chilled and ready in the fridge. Last Bottle makes that easy by featuring one hand-picked sparkling wine every day. From champagne to cava to pét-nat, all at 30 to 70% off retail. Their team tastes through hundreds of bottles, so what you see each day is truly worth popping. Every offer also comes with tasting notes, pairing ideas, and stories about the farmers and winemakers behind the wine, plus a bubbles glossary that explains things like méthode traditionnelle, pét-nat, and dosage. They even have a brand new Last Bubbles app, making it easier than ever to discover your next favorite bottle. So go download the app or visit lastbubbles.com and use code CORCANDFIZZ for 10% off your next order. I think they're definitely still learning what it means and trying to understand because it's not as common as it is in Europe. There are quite a few European wineries that are Demeter certified, but over here it's not like the usual. Even though many people work organic or biodynamically, it's not really there's not much education about it quite yet out there. But I do like that I'm able to put on the label as well. So this also creates curiosity for the consumer and also transparency, which I think is very important too. I cannot put organic labels on the wines just because of how the regulations are between Europe and America and what regulations stand for and like the winemaking part. So to me, having the certification actually helps as well to tell the story without even being there. You look at the label and you see it's, oh, it's a biodynamic certified wine. So it has a certain standard of sustainability. Or attention to detail when it comes to farming. So I do, I do like it. So if my wineries would obviously make this certified, that would be amazing. But I also know it would take some time to actually get this process going. But also what we talked about earlier, in fact, Max was just saying about the topsoil, how lively it is. I think you can also taste it in his wines. When we were tasting the wines, when he was over here past month, the wines were evolving so much in the glass too. So they're so open. They, they grow, they breathe, and like there's so much happening. So it was, I think, really cool to see how the wine is just like alive and not just, you know, closed down, not using, you know, too much sulfur or additives and stuff to make the wine kind of closed and like stay the same for like a whole week. So they kind of evolve and like, yeah, definitely even got better every time you taste it and it was very cool to see. I feel like that's what, I mean, that's one of those things that makes wine so cool, right? At least to me, that's one of the reasons why I've loved wine is because it does have that ability to, to change and, and also the complexity of flavor, right? When a, you know, to me, most any wine that I'm like not a fan of is usually because it's like single flavor. You're not getting much from it. It can be kind of boring. And so being able to have a, a lively wine that has a lot of complexity, and like we said, it can't just be from the winemaking, it has to come from the, the vineyard as well. And this biodynamic farming helps do that. It is interesting too, Lisa, that you bring up the fact that yeah, even if a wine is organic, can be labeled organic in Europe because the laws are different in the US versus Europe, you might not be able to say the same thing here. And it mostly just has to do with how much sulfur can be added at the end or how many sulfites can be added at the end. And it's too bad that like you can do all of this and then you won't get to communicate that to the consumer unless you are there talking to them. Yeah. Slightly frustrating. And also the label approval too, because every winery that is getting certified that I'm working with has to change the label completely. I cannot even like, it's like illegal to be on the label. So they have to either relabel or, you know, luckily I'm ahead of time and I can, you know, plan ahead and tell them, okay, this is what I probably need. Don't label them. Wait for me and get like the US label ready to do it. So. Yeah. Yeah. That would make a difference. Wow. Okay. Let's dive into the grapes that you focus on, Max. So I saw based off on, on Lisa's website, at least I saw Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, and then Tzatzilas. And is Gutedel, is that the name of a grape variety? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, so that's the same name at the same as Tzatzilas. They're just the, okay. I was like, I've not, I have not seen that word or that grape variety before, but First, just starting, how do you decide what grapes to work with or which grapes and which styles to focus on? At the beginning, I planned my winery when I studied viticulture in Geisenheim, and there I make all the plan for the winery. And at the first ideas, I don't like to make Riesling because in our area, it's not normally— Riesling is a very easy wine. Sometimes with 20% or 25% Sauvignon Blanc inside that you get a little bit more flavors, yeah, and a very cold fermentation. But then I think about it when I would like to talk about terroir, when I would like to talk where I'm from, there is important you have the, the main variety, you know. But then for me it was clear we can sell it better when it's don't call it Schausler, uh, don't call it Gut Edel. Because of that, we call it Schossler. And we make fermentation in big oak barrels, 1,200 liters. And we leave the wine for 1 year on the full yeast, and then we bottle it unfiltered with a little bit sulfur. Yeah, that's it. By Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, we have a lot of Pinot Noir in our farm. Yeah. And for me, it's Pinot Noir, one of the important, or the important wine variety. And yeah, and Chardonnay is for me this white wine who works in the next, I think, 100 years in our area. And because of this, it's very important for us. And now we plant a lot of Chardonnay. Yeah. And by Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, we, we make a battle with the Burgund. Yeah. All over the world, nobody would like to buy one bottle Burgund for more than €100. Yeah. And this is our big, yeah, this is how it works so good to sell an orange Chardonnay because we, we make very good quality for around €20 or €35. And yeah, this is a very good price point. And yeah, because of this, it works very good. Yeah. I was curious for your farm, you mentioned that it, there's a lot of Pinot Noir on it. Did you inherit the farm, purchase the farm? How did you start with it? And then it sounded like you planted Chardonnay grapes later. My father has a food farm, a very big food farm, but we are very focused on cherries and we have only 2 hectares wines. And these wines we sell to, to a big company. And then in 2017, we start with around 1 hectare with grapes to make our own wines because you get in the big company around 35 cents per kilo. It's crazy. And then we start to make our own wines. And the deal was my father work in the vineyards and he make what I want, and then he get a fair price for his grapes. And I make all the wine process and selling the wines. But then my father dies in 2017, 2018, 2018. There was 25 and I have the whole farm. Then I make one summer, summer 2018 was very hot summer in our area. And this was a terrible summer for me. I work every day minimum 20 hours and it was so crazy. And after this year, I changed the farm completely. We make all the fruits, all the cherries we sell to my cousin. And now we are full focused on viticulture. Now we have only 2 hectares. But only for us for eating or make apple juice or apple cider. And yeah, now we have around 10 hectares, 10.5, 11 hectares wines. And yeah, now we are the full focus of wine. Okay. I feel like that's probably much, much simpler to be able to focus on one thing instead of having the— Yeah, of course. The entire farm. But when you think about a biodynamic farm, it's better to have cows and sheep and maybe have food and all the stuff. Yeah. You have your own garden and yeah. You still have the cherry trees and everything around the vineyard, you just not taking care of them, or has it not been around that anymore? No, it's around the vineyards. In our area, we have not a big monoculture. We have 1 or 3 hectares wines, then comes 1 hectare with fruits, and then we have another 1 hectare with wine. Our area is very nice. Yeah. But I sell the, the fruits to my cousin and now he works with this. I feel like that does make it easier, like you said, to farm biodynamically because you're already kind of set up for the fact that it's not just grapevines in the, in the vineyard, or right. You already have kind of all those other things working together and they all, they at least my understanding of biodynamics is like, that's kind of one of your goals is for everything to work together and to not just take from the soil for your vines. You also wanna, yeah, you know, give back in some way or have some give and take between the different things that you're farming. Yes, of course. Yeah. Okay. All right. Now I'm curious, Lisa, in the American market, so Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, those are quite familiar grape varieties. We understand those. We know for, you know, even like wine enthusiasts, we think of Burgundy, you know, and it's always fun to try it from a different region, but Chasselas and Gutedel especially. But I noticed the wine is labeled as both Chasselas and Gutedel. And so I'm curious, have you found that folks are wanting to try new varietals like that? Is there a push for that or are people still kind of like, oh, I don't know what that is. I'll take the Chardonnay because I, I've heard of that before. It's actually incredible. To see how many people want to buy different grape varieties. So one of our top sellers is an Riesling. The Schossler received like really, really great feedback too. So everyone is like very curious, especially those who drink wine on a regular basis. They want to try something new and learn and educate themselves about what else is out there. And then actually selling Chardonnay coming from Germany is still a lot to talk about too. So it's not just like, oh yeah, it's a Chardonnay, great, I'm sure I'll love it. It's more about, okay, what does it mean? Coming from Germany, how do we make the wine? What's the style? There's like no classic German Chardonnay style. So if you think about, you know, obviously Chablis, you know what you most likely can expect when you get in your glass. So Germany doesn't have that quite yet. It's also interesting, but then if you have like Nexus wines, for example, which is very close to Burgundy, the style, the stylistic of the wine is very similarly to what you would also get in, in Burgundy. So I think. The wines are selling well and like once you open them, it's like very easy to get people to be like, oh yeah, I do like this Chardonnay a lot. Or especially the Pinot. The Pinot has been showing so incredibly well and it's been really well received even though it's a higher price point Pinot. But yeah, it's kind of nice to see that the weird grapes sell well and it's a very good talking point too. Yeah. I feel like that's like a, a trend that's coming out in the wine world, especially with younger drinkers, is that they want to try something different. You know, they're not immediately You know, like, oh, I need to, you know, the biggest and the, you know, there's no, what do I wanna say? Like, I feel like with older generations it kind of had more to do with the name or it had more to do with like, oh, Bordeaux, like it's fancy and it has, you know, that title to it. And now it's more like, what funky, weird new thing do you have? I want to try that. Yeah. I don't wanna drink what my mom is drinking kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I want something new. Yeah. I'm curious with the Pinot Noir, is it a marketing thing or is it not as common? So I've heard of Pinot Noir from Germany is typically called, is it Spätburgunder? Is it a like marketing thing to choose to call it Pinot Noir when importing it into the US, or do you call it Pinot Noir as well in Germany, Max? Um, we have both. We have some Pinot Noir where we call it Spätburgunder, and the other we call Pinot Noir. It depends on the clones. Yeah. Uh-huh. It's our Pinot Noir wines. Um, we have most of our Burgundy clones. Yeah. That we have planned a lot of selection myself in the last 10 years. Yeah. And yeah, that's why one called Pinot Noir. Okay. And then the other one, are they like German-based clones or what? Which clones do you use for the— okay. Yeah. And they smell a little bit different. The Germans, I think the, the Burgundy ones are a little bit more darker fruit, sometimes a nice sherry. And a little bit more earth. Yeah. It's a forest earth. Yeah. And the clones from Baden, then our Spätburgunders, there's sometimes air or more the red fruits. Yeah. A little bit strawberry and sometimes some herbs and yeah, it smells a little bit different, but I like both. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. I've never really thought about it that way, cuz in my head I'm just like, oh, Spätburgunder is just the German name for Pinot Noir. Which is just like a very, very simplification of it versus no, sometimes it can be kind of like how you think about it or like you said, the clones that, that you use. Yeah, we have in Germany, we have around 15 years ago with the red wine hype. Yeah. When you go to a winery and you would like to buy 6 bottles Pinot Noir, then you have to buy 12 bottles Gutedel or whatnot, or Pinot Blanc. And from this time they try to get some clones to get very much kilos, yeah. And you get very much berries. And this is now the big difference from the German, uh, clones to the Burgundy clones, because in Burgundy they try since 200 years to make the best wines. Yeah. And Germany was completely different thing. Yeah. And yeah. Interesting. Oh, so fun. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. You can learn more about Tupetz Wine Connection and purchase Weingut Greiner along with many other delicious German wines here in the US at tupetzwine.com. That is T-U-P-E-T-Z wine dot com. And you can learn more about Max's winery directly on his website, which is Weingut, W-E-I-N-G-U-T dash greiner.com. Both links will be in the show notes so you don't have to try to memorize or write it down. If you love this episode as much as I did, would so love it if you could take a quick second to rate it and leave a review. And of course, if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them. And if you'd like to show additional support for the show, you can become a paid subscriber. Subscriber. Click the link in the show notes and become a monthly supporter for $10 or less a month. You'll get a shout out in the next episode I record. Plus, if you choose the $10 per month option, you'll get to choose a topic for a future episode. In next week's episode, you'll hear part 2 of my interview with Max and Lisa, where we talk about how Max's winemaking style has evolved over time, why a region like Markgräflerland, which we're just going to call the Black Forest region, deserves a spot on your wine radar. And then we're going to pull back the curtain a little bit on what actually happens after the wine is made and how it gets here on the shelves in the US. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me @corkandfizz on Instagram. Cheers.