The Real Impact Wine Lovers Can Make w/ Heather Daenitz (Part 2)

Ep 151

What if the simplest way to support your favorite winery takes less than five minutes?

In part two of our conversation, Heather Daenitz shares how photography, storytelling, and consumer engagement can completely shift the way people experience wine. From highlighting vineyard workers to encouraging thoughtful reviews and rethinking how you shop at your local wine store, she explains how small actions like tagging a winery or naming a tasting room host can have a real impact behind the scenes.

And because we are both pregnant while recording this episode we dig into the topic of non alcoholic wine, sober curiosity, and whether still wine without alcohol can ever truly match the complexity of the original. Heather shares why Germany is ahead when it comes to non-alcoholic wine, why aromatic varieties like Riesling may be key, and what needs to change in the industry to make non-alcoholic wine better.

So if you’ve ever wondered how much power wine lovers really have and what role you play in the industry’s future, this episode will change how you see it.

Thank you to our exclusive sponsor, Last Bubbles, for sponsoring this episode. Download the Last Bubbles app or go to www.lastbubbles.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 10% off your order! (And be sure to sign up for their mailing list so you never miss a bottle!)

Connect with Heather:

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/craftandcluster

The Wine Marketing Field Guide - https://www.winemarketingfieldguide.com/

Pour Memories Podcast - https://www.pourmemories.com/

Episode Highlights:

• Why reviews matter more than you think
• How tagging wineries helps them grow
• The role of user generated content
• The truth about non alcoholic wine
• Why Germany is ahead in NA (non-alcoholic) wine production
• Aromatic grapes and NA potential
• Supporting sober curious consumers
• How to shop smarter at wine stores

Transcript

0:00

If you love sparkling wine as much as I do, you'll love today's sponsor, Last Bubbles. They feature one handpicked bottle of champagne, Prosecco, or other bubbly every day at up to 70% off. I'll share more later, but for now, be sure to download the Last Bubbles app or go to lastbubbles.com and use code CorkandFizz for 10% off. Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hailey Bohlman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle-based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. I am So glad you're here to listen to part 2 of my interview with Heather of Craft and Cluster. If you haven't heard part 1 and this is the first time you've heard of Heather, I highly recommend pausing this episode. Go listen to episode 150 first. I will be waiting for you when you get back. As a reminder, Heather is a wine industry photographer and marketing strategist based in Santa Barbara wine country. Through her business Craft and Cluster. She helps small wineries connect with their audiences through authentic behind-the-scenes photography and marketing strategy. She is also the 2025 Wine Photographer of the Year in the Food Photographer of the Year Awards, which is so well deserved. Just take a second to look at her photos online and you will see why she won this award. Heather is also the writer and host of the Wine Marketing Field Guide. This is a newsletter and podcast dedicated to practical direct-to-consumer wine marketing, which is the primary form of marketing that Smaller wineries do for busy wine professionals. All right. That's all about her. Let's dive into part 2 here. I think as we're talking about these different things that make wine so fascinating for us, as you know, cork dorks and wine lovers, have you noticed a, you know, a great photo or a caption and how it can change the way that people taste a wine or see a wine? Yeah. I mean, I see this a lot. I think I'm going to, I'm going to use Tablas Creek as an example. Cause I think that they, Tablas Creek Winery, if you don't follow them on social media, it, you should. I think they do a really good job of educating, but in a way that's not stale and helping people really see all the decisions that go into the wine that they're drinking. Not just the typical beautiful vineyard views and sheep in the vineyard and things like that. They also show that, but they're also talking about why they made certain decisions, why they decided to do bag-in-box wine, why they decided to make this particular field blend or whatever. They're talking about those decisions, and it's really fascinating. And I've seen a lot of those fans in particular of Tablas Creek just get it, like they understand it more. They understand the value behind wine a little bit more than I think of some other consumers. And so my hope is that with my clients—Tablas Creek, I photograph for them occasionally, but they have their own marketing department. They are amazing. Yeah, they're wonderful. But my hope is that for my other winery clients that I'm able to kind of help them like do the same. Something I do notice quite a lot with the work that I do is I'm always trying to kind of like humanize my clients a little bit more because again, like I think the average consumer forgets that there's like people behind these wines and that, you know, they're like, ah, it's just this like fancy luxury product that I might be able to afford. And they, they forget that there's like actual faces and hands and people that like touch this this wine and bring it to them. And, you know, if it wasn't for all of these people along the way to like bringing it, they wouldn't have it on their table. You know, they wouldn't even have the option of having that wine. And so my hope is that with all my clients that I'm able to do that. And something I have noticed is that doing like team profiles, showing the people not just like pretty headshots of them, but also showing them like actually working, doing the things, I have noticed that there are some consumers who've been like, oh my gosh, like I didn't realize how much this one person did. You know, I like, it's really, it's very cool. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. Yeah, no, it definitely does. I think it shows, at least for me, when I think about social media, one of the like major benefits that has come out of it is to be able to share the people and the stories behind the wine. And it also feels like, especially with a lot of the folks that I've talked to on this podcast, that younger generations, as they're becoming, you know, of age and able to drink the wine, they care more about the people and the story behind the wine a lot of the times than the points or the, you know, the prestige around the wine. They wanna know the stories behind it. And I feel like that's something that social media has allowed a lot of wineries to do and allowed people to see into that. Cause I think myself as a wine consumer and as a, you know, wine lover who, you know, goes out and goes to tasting rooms and seeks out smaller wineries, A lot of times I buy the wine because it's good, but also because I love the people and I'm just like, that's half the reason I join memberships most of the time is because I wanna support that person. And I think social media has that cool way in both like the photos and the captions and being able to follow along the story to allow other people to do that, even if they can't visit in person, they get to like become part of the story. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I sort of the, The soapbox I will always stand on is if you as a consumer, you know, you maybe you don't have the means right now to purchase wine, or you can only purchase like 1 or 2 bottles a year, and that's totally okay. But if you're like, I still wanna support these people and this work and these wineries, there's so many free ways that you can do that. And the, and the big one that I will always like hang my hat on is leave reviews. Like, If you had a really great time, even like if you had a great time 2 years ago and you just forgot to leave a review, go leave a review. Be like, I had a really amazing experience. And, you know, whenever you can, if you had like a really, really amazing experience at a tasting room with a very specific host, write their name down and add their name into the review. Because one, it just feels really good. It feels really, really good.. But speaking as someone who's worked in the tasting room and who has had the privilege and kindness of strangers telling my bosses how great I was, I know, I know from firsthand experience, like how, how impactful that could be. You know, when I was working for Willamette Valley Vineyards, I was a broke college student and I was working multiple jobs and I was putting myself through school. And I just remember one month I was having just the, like, the shitty, I was having the shittiest week. I was feeling really down. Work, you know, like school was really hard. I was like kind of towards the tail end of getting my bachelor's degree and I was, I was just struggling. Like I was just mentally and everything and I just, life was really hard and like I had consistently had some really good reviews that named me in the review. And so that month I got employee of the month. And it sounds really silly to be like, oh, like employee of the month, but like at Willamette Valley Vineyards, they like, they gave me like a gift card to like a nicer restaurant. And as, as a broke college student, the only time I ever got to eat at nicer restaurants was if somebody else took me or if I got a gift card. And so like that month, I, you know, I was really down on myself and I was like, oh my God, I get to like go eat like something other than Top Ramen for once, you know? More spaghetti and, or like rice and beans, you know, I actually had a nice nutritious meal and I was able to get a glass of wine and like go spend, you know, time with my husband. And it was just like, it boosted my morale quite a lot. So little things like that. One, it feels really good, but also you can also have a direct impact on somebody's life by leaving a good review, which takes less than 5 minutes. So leave a review. If you are on social media, go find that winery on social media, follow them, tag them in your posts. One of the things that I do as a social media manager and marketing professional is I go and I look at the reviews and I look at the tagged posts and I look at the things I like to look through the customer's eyes. What was the thing that really blew them away about this experience? What are they photographing? Like, what are they consistently photographing at this tasting room? And then I sort of like use their words that they've put out into the world and I use them in my captions and the photos that they are taking, I go and try and recreate a similar photo and I put that onto the social medias for the clients and those posts end up doing so, so well because I'm literally speaking the customer's language. And so, yeah, so you can, you can make a huge impact You know, if you're a consumer, you don't have the means right now because life is hard and the economy is shit, but you still wanna help wineries succeed, that's like a super small thing you can do. Tag them in posts, follow them on Instagram, leave reviews and interact with them. Engage with them. Yeah. I think that's a great thing to call out too, cuz I feel like one thing I'm thinking of is if somebody like wants to try the wine, I think there's this pressure when you go to a tasting room to purchase a bottle afterwards. And I know with a lot of tasting rooms now, there is, you know, there is a price to taste. And I think this could be a good opportunity for those who just aren't in a place to purchase wine necessarily, to still get the opportunity to taste. And then basically, yeah, support the winery in other ways. Take some pictures while you're there. You know, leave a review on Google that says how much you enjoyed the experience, because I'm so guilty of this. I look at reviews all the time. All the time for things and I'm terrible at leaving them despite the fact that I know how useful they are, you know? So leave your review and say, you know, if you like the wine and like you said, I like the idea of, you know, really paying attention to who your host was, who did you work with? And then, you know, if you are on social media, at least again, I often, when I'm looking at a winery, I'll look at their tagged post because I want to see how are other people who are like me enjoying the winery? What, what did they enjoy? What is this winery doing?, and you can do all of that to support. So then it sends more people there who are able to buy bottles of wine or at least start to know about it and start talking about it. Because like you said, these smaller wineries, that's what they need help with. And you can do a lot of, you know, the, the user-generated content, as my tech mind wants to say, helps them create content so they don't have to do all the marketing on their own. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's, it's really. So helpful. I just, I love it. Like I have a few clients who they get tagged in posts all the time and it took a while for us to get there, but it was like part of it was like reminding the tasting room staff, the hosts to like ask for it to be like, hey, like, oh, I, you know, oh, here, do you need me to take a picture of you guys? Cause you like, they're trying to take a selfie or whatever. Oh, I could take a picture for you. And then like when they hand the phone back being like, by the way, we're like, if you're on Instagram or if you're on TikTok or whatever, like this is our handle and you can tag us. Like we'd love to see you., and it's like that simple reminder for folks. Cause like some, you know, people are having a great time and they're not like, they're taking a photo and then they're putting their phone down cuz they're, you know, living in the moment and all that stuff. And they don't always remember later on, but like if they had a really great experience and they remember the person being like, oh, by the way, you should tag us on social media, or like whatever, they'll remember. And so yeah, it's just a, it's such an easy thing to do. It's so simple and we love it. Like, you know, like I'm in my clients' DMs, I'm reading them, I'm responding to them. And whenever I get like somebody who like takes the like 5 minutes to leave a really thoughtful comment or to, you know, send us a DM or like tag us in a story, I respond to them and I talk to them because I'm so excited. I'm like, oh my gosh, like thank you so much. Like you had, it looked like you had a great time. Like what was your favorite wine? And I have conversations with them and they love it. And it's like, it's this fun, you know, like at the end of the day, we're all people trying to connect with each other and that's It's such an easy way to do that. So yeah. Yeah. And you don't have to have, you know, I'm thinking in my head of people like, oh, what if I like don't have a big following? Like that's not going to help. And it's like, no, it will. Like every person who talks about it. And like you said before, I know I'm also guilty of this, right? You went out a day wine tasting. You're probably not going to post that night because you enjoyed some wine. Yeah. So it's okay. We forget things when we drink. Right? It's totally okay. If like, if you're listening to this episode right now and you're like, oh, I do have some photos or. I visited a winery 2 months ago. You can still post about it. You can still especially write the review on Google, you know, just search for the winery and you know, they'll, they'll pop up and you can say something about them. It doesn't have to be right afterwards. I'm sure the wineries appreciate it no matter when it happens. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm, I'm, one of my favorite things is getting tagged in like photo dumps on Instagram. It's so fun. I, I love, I love when that happens cuz then I get to like see where else did you visit on your like trip to Santa Barbara County and Like, you know, what restaurants are you eating? Because it's also, it's also just for like the marketer brain in me. I'm like, it's really useful information for me to be like, oh, like these are the habits of the people who are buying our wine or like visiting our tasting room. Like they like to eat at this restaurant versus this restaurant. And like, it's really, and you can notice trends and stuff like that. And so like at the very minimum, you're giving us really, really valuable data that is going to help us. Make better content for you. So yeah, yeah, I love it. Okay, so I'm gonna pull us to a slightly different topic because I feel like it'd be crazy not to take advantage of this. Both of us are currently pregnant and drinking wine and both exploring a little bit the world of non-alcoholic wine because I'm sure it's like one of the top questions you get now that you are a wine person who is pregnant. At least that happened to me. And so I feel a certain way about non-alcoholic wine after trying lots of things, but I wanna hear from you first. What are kind of your general thoughts on non-alcoholic wine, especially as a supporter of small wineries? Yeah. Yeah. We have a very long way to go. It's the, the long and short of the situation. And I think that there's some, there's some solid non-alcoholic wines out there. I think beer and spirits has it dialed in. They've figured it out. Even cider to an extent has it pretty dialed in and figured out. I've noticed this particularly with still non-alcoholic wines. So a lot of the non-alcoholic wines that I've liked have been sparkling, and I can go into like my theories as to why that is, but the still non-alcoholic wines, I find that they're like, they're either like too sweet or they're too acidic. They're not balanced. And the thing that I love about wine and that I miss about drinking wine right now, for the record, I've been very good about like not missing wine. Like I actually, you know, I've been fine not having it. But the thing that I do miss when I do think about it is how complex and like how much you can like really like pull out of a bottle of wine. You can really think about it if you want to. Like, you don't have to— like, every like glass of wine doesn't have to be this like huge intellectual experience, but sometimes I want it to be. And I, and I do miss that aspect. I miss thinking about wine and really like kind of analyzing it and like picking out the, the subtle, you know, the subtleties of the wine and still wine just isn't there yet for the most part. I did, I recently wrote an article on, on my Substack about this, about how like some of the wines that I've had and, and I asked for recommendations and I had a bunch of people send me some recommendations. And so I, I actually just earlier this week took order of one of the recommendations, which is still wine. It's called, it's called Missing Thorn is the winery. I have not tried the wine yet, but I did order the still rosé. And I think a still white, maybe of Riesling. I love Riesling, so I was like, like really hopeful about that one cuz I miss Riesling a lot. But I had some really good recommendations for that and so I was like, oh, like I haven't tried it yet, so I don't know, maybe hopefully it's great. If it's not great, I won't say anything about it, but I have some high hopes because the winemakers behind the project are generally pretty good winemakers. So yeah, so I'm gonna check that out. But yeah, I don't know. I think, I think we just have a long way to go and I think part of the reason that it hasn't and this is a rant that I won't get too deep into because I, it just makes me mad. I think one of the reasons that there hasn't been a lot of research into non-alcoholic wine, it's kind of the same reason that boxed wine, canned wine, and even like, you know, capsule, like screw-top wines were not necessarily villainized for a long time, but like just kind of looked down on. And I think it's because there's some really loud voices out there who are just not supporting the research that needs to happen in order to make non-alcoholic wine really, really good. You know, there's, there's a lot of folks who, and I, I don't wanna get too into this because I, I feel like it's a little pot calling the kettle black, but like there's some folks out there who like are convinced that there's like a neo-prohibitionist movement going on and that like Dry January and Sober October are like the enemy of wine and like We need to remember that wine is more than alcohol. And like, yeah, to an extent, like I agree that wine is culture, it's art, it's science, it's all these amazing things. It is a means of bringing people together and I love that. And it has alcohol in it, right? And we can't like, and I think that this sort of villainizing of sober, curious people. Is not helping. Like, it doesn't further the narrative that I believe ultimately these people want. I think ultimately the people who are kind of, you know, spouting these things about, about like neo-prohibitionism and blah, blah, blah, sober, curious people are the enemy of wine. I think that ultimately what they want is people to— they want people to buy more wine, right? That's the end of, end of the day. But I'm like, It's also 2025 and like we know more things about alcohol and there are people who can't drink alcohol either socially because they are, you know, they find it hard to moderate or they can't drink alcohol because of their health or temporarily because they're pregnant or whatever, whatever the case may be. Maybe like they just wanna take a break for a little bit. And I, I think we need to stop demonizing them and start finding a way to bring them to the table in other ways. One of the things that I love so much about being pregnant in 2025 is that there are so many non-alcoholic beverage options out there, and there are so many of the good wine bars and, you know, places that you can drink that offer non-alcoholic solutions. Because I still, like, you know, like I have, like, I call it my local We have like a wine bar down the street from us that I can literally walk to, and we love going there. Our friends own the place. They have a really amazing wine list. They have a really amazing beer list. So my husband and I will go there and I haven't had to not go there because they were forward-thinking and they have a ton of non-alcoholic beer options. They have some non-alcoholic like wine alternatives, you know, kind of like, what are they called? Spritzers and things like that. And they're non-alcoholic and they're really, really tasty. And, and it's just like. They have so many options. So I can go to like a third place, like a wine bar, like a cafe, like a restaurant, whatever. And I can still be social and I can still have something other than sparkling water or soda, cuz I don't want to, I don't drink soda. So like I want this, you know, I wanna have something that's like more than water. And yeah. And so being able to offer those solutions I think is the answer versus villainizing people who don't wanna drink for whatever reason. Yeah. And so, and I, and I know, like, I know that these people who are doing this, I don't think that it's their intention to villainize people who aren't drinking or choosing not to drink. I don't think that's their intention. I think that they are just, they're worried about the message of like sober curiosity spreading. Right. Right. They're like, they're kind of, they're, I mean, scared. Yeah. Excuse me. I mean, scared is probably a good word to use of just like hearing and like Again, when we talk about the younger generations, there's a lot of them that are sober curious or not interested in drinking, but I think you, you hit the nail on the head of like, you know, as long as wine can still continue, like, in, like when I think of just my friend group, there's a couple people in my friend group that don't drink. They still want to hang out with the whole friend group and they would still willingly go to a wine bar, to a winery or something like that. You know, if there's something else available for them. And then the same way of like, as being pregnant, I still wanna go to the wine bar and the winery and like, It'd be nice if I could have something besides, you know, tasting and spitting the wine. Yeah. Right. So just like thinking of that, I, I do wanna ask you, I have a speed round to end the podcast, but I'm curious because you said non-alcoholic wine isn't there yet. Do you think it could get there? Because one of my beliefs at the moment is that wine might not be able to be good non-alcoholic, like without bubbles. I've only really had bubbly ones and even then it just kind of tasted like a good drink. It didn't. Make me think of wine versus like beer to me, because it has a lower alcohol level, can work. But I'm curious, do you think wine could get there to be good non-alcoholic? Today's podcast is brought to you by Last Bubbles, your online destination for incredible sparkling wine at unbelievable prices. If you know me, you know I'm a total sucker for a great bottle of bubbles. Sparkling wine should not be saved for special occasions. Instead, I think you pop bubbly to make the occasion special. Plus, it pairs with everything from oysters and caviar to popcorn on Tuesday nights, so it's honestly a no-brainer to keep a bottle chilled and ready in the fridge. Last Bottle makes that easy by featuring one handpicked sparkling wine every day, from champagne to cava to pét-nat, all at 30 to 70% off retail. Their team tastes through hundreds of bottles, so what you see each day is truly worth popping. Every offer also comes with tasting notes, pairing ideas, and stories about the farmers and winemakers behind the wine, plus a bubbles glossary that explains things like méthode traditionnelle, pét-nat, and dosage. They even have a brand new Last Bubbles app, making it easier than ever to discover your next favorite bottle. So go download the app or visit lastbubbles.com and use code CorkandFizz for 10% off your next order. Oh, absolutely. I definitely think, I think there needs to be more research into it. A lot of the best non-alcoholic wine options are coming out of Germany. And part of that is that they've been doing it for a longer period of time. They've been making non-alcoholic beer for a really long time. And so they naturally, they would make non-alcoholic wine as well. And what's really, really cool about it is in Germany, I think it works really well in Germany in particular because German varieties tend to be more aromatic. I think one of the problems that we're seeing with a lot of non-alcoholic wines that are made in the United States is that they're trying to start making them like alcoholic wines. And then, and in California in particular, we tend to have higher ABV. And as you said, like when you allow your wine to develop that far and like, you know, process the sugars that far, you end up losing a lot of complexity over time. And so when you end up stripping the alcohol, the alcohol is the one of the things, you know, in this like balance of making a complex wine, you have your sugar, your acid, your alcohol, all of these things sort of talk to each other to make a wine really, really good and complex and like, you know, nuanced and all those things. And so when you like strip away the alcohol, you end up throwing that wine out of balance. But if you start with a base product that is really aromatic, really already complex, maybe like slightly lower sugar, slightly higher acidity, but balanced, and then you remove that alcohol, you end up having— you have the aromatics sort of like make up for that loss in complexity. Cuz the alcohol is really what adds a lot of complexity to the wine. From what I'm understanding. And I think that it works really, really well in Germany because they have these really aromatic varieties. And I think a lot of the wines that we're making in the US, these non-alcoholic wines are made from like, they, they take these grapes that aren't very aromatic, like Cabernet Sauvignon, and they're like, let's, because people like Cab and people like Chardonnay and they like, you know, whatever, we're gonna make that into a non-alcoholic wine. We're gonna strip everything that makes those wines really, really delicious. Where I'm like, that's why I'm really excited about this Riesling because Riesling's an extremely aromatic variety. It's a really lovely wine. It's why it's one of my favorites. And I'm really excited to try this non-alcoholic Riesling cuz I'm just like, I bet it's probably gonna be really good, or at least it's gonna be, it's gonna be good enough. And I think that we just haven't had enough time. Yeah. Germany's been doing it for a much longer time. They've put a little bit more research and time into it. And so they're like light years ahead of the rest of us. And I think one of the reasons that we haven't really gone full force into the research and development of this thing is because we have some really loud voices that are like villainizing the, you know, the sober curious movement. I'm like, instead of villainizing the sober curious, recognize that these people exist and they still want wine. I'm like, yep, we are pregnant and we still want wine. Make some wine for us. Yeah. Figure it out. And we still exist. Like we didn't just disappear for 9 months. Like, you know, and so, yeah. So anyways, yeah. Yeah. I think it will. Okay. It just, we just need people to put the effort into it. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. I love that take on it. Cause yeah, I've been starting to give up on it. We'll see what it's like in there. I mean, I think, I think if cider can do it, wine can do it. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So to finish the episode off, I always do a speed round. It's not like you have to like buzz in as fast as you can. It's more just like, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Otherwise these questions could take a while. So the first one I'm going to, I have to change it a little bit. Okay. I'm going to change it a lot because it's what's your favorite wine at the moment? But right now we're obviously not drinking a lot of wine. So instead, is there a wine that you're like, looking forward to the most trying after pregnancy? Yeah. My friend Bingo, he's Billy Waffen from Foxen, he's his son. He has his own label called Berrio and he makes Albariño. And when I, I went through and I was doing like an inventory of my, of the wine that I still have, I have way too much wine, which says no one ever, but I do. I have like more wine than I know what to do with and I was like, I have like 3 bottles of Albariño and I think it's because like, but I, I'm always like, I need, I need to like drink more Albariño. Like I feel like it's a wine that I need to get to know more. So anyways, I'm really looking forward to Bingo's, to yeah, the Berrio Albariño because yeah, I, he makes really great wine and I have several bottles of it that I want to get into. Yeah. So I have, I actually like, it's funny, I went out when I was inventorying all my wine, I was like, kind of like tagging the wines and I was like, here's what I'm like, we are not giving that away because we're gonna try drinking that, you know, once, once this guy is earthside here. Yeah, exactly. I love it. Okay. How about what's like a go-to bottle of wine to bring to a dinner party or to share with friends? Oh yeah. I'm mentioning them a lot, but the Foxen Chenin Blanc. Yeah. Foxen Chenin Blanc. The wine is made from these vines that were planted in like the 1960s, so that it's a, you know, a nice, nice old vine. It's actually was just named, officially named a historic vineyard in California, which is really fun. So it's part of the Historic Vineyard Society and it's just a really lovely wine. It's really, I think it's really people-friendly, it's food-friendly, it's great on its own. Like it's just a, yeah, all around a really special wine. Yeah. Sounds delicious. Yeah. I'm like trying to think if I've had it. There's a good chance. I do love Chenin anytime I get a chance to try it. What is a favorite wine region that you've visited? You know, I'm so biased. Santa Barbara County. I live, I live here. I work here. I love it. Yeah. I mean, I, if I had to choose outside of Santa Barbara County, I wanna say in California, I would say Humboldt. In places that I've visited, I would say Humboldt. I think that there's some really interesting wines coming out of Humboldt. So like Joseph Jewell makes a couple of Humboldt Pinots and Chardonnay that are just like really fucking good. So that's really fun and interesting and different. I haven't visited yet, but I really want to go to the Mosel and Alsace. I just like the wines that are coming out of, out of those regions. I really, really love. And then I'm really interested in Michigan wines. Oh yeah, I have a friend over there who has sent me a couple bottles, and I'm like, these are really freaking good. And you don't think about Michigan very often as like a wine region, but they're, you know, they're kind of I think maybe in the same camp as, like Germany in that they have some like really lovely aromatic wines. And they're also doing some really interesting thing with like hybrid wines over there or hybrid, you know, working with hybrid vines and that's super cool. And like native, you know, Native American wines, like native, like to the United States. So that's really cool. Yeah, I don't know. A few. I love it. I love it. But yeah. And you beat me to the next question, which was a wine region that you'd like to visit that you haven't. Which sounds like Moselle, Alsace, the Michigan, which is crazy. I know, right? It's like if you offer to go anywhere where there's wine and there's a wine region, I'll probably want to go. Yeah. Like, let's be real. You know, I did go to, to the UK. I've, I went to a winery down in Kent, which is just south of London by like an hour change. And I really love the wines there too. They're really great sparkling wine region. The UK in general is great for sparkling wine. So like, yeah, they're great. Anywhere. Okay. Yeah. Anywhere. How about like a go-to wine and food pairing that you enjoyed? Mm. Mm. I mean, I love French fries, so yeah, sparkling wine and French fries. Yeah. Chenin Blanc and French fries. Really good. When I, I did go to Germany, I didn't go to the Mosel, but I, I was in Munich and we were mostly drinking beer as one does in Munich, but I did have schnitzel and Grüner Veltliner. Oh, I forgot to mention, I really want to go to Austria just in general. I just love, yeah, I love Grüner Veltliner is one of my favorite varieties. So yeah, I had schnitzel and Grüner Veltliner and that was freaking awesome. Oh, a good one of my go-tos actually is like spicy Thai food and Grüner Veltliner. Amazing. Yeah. I had someone ask me recently, I was like, I'm having some spicy, spicy Thai soup tonight. Like, what should I pair with it? And I think my things were off-dry Riesling or Grüner Veltliner. Like those are the go-to for that. Yeah. Yeah. It's so delicious. Yeah, anything kind of spicy is going to be great with— or anything kind of spicy and then anything like kind of salty can be really good with like Grüner Veltliner and Riesling because they've got the acidity to handle it. So yeah. Okay, I know you said you already have too much wine, but let's say someone gave you $1,000, you have to spend it on wine. How would you go about spending it? Obviously we don't need to know exact bottles. How would you want to spend it? Would it be like big, you know, very expensive bottles, or would you dive into trying a lot of different ones? How would you go about it? Yeah, I think I'd be adventurous. One of my favorite things to do when I go to London is I like to go to Noble Rot. So Noble Rot is this amazing wine bar and restaurant. They have 3 locations in London and they're so delicious. And they have this really amazing wine list. And the one of the things that they do really well and why I love going there so often is they have a huge buy the glass list and they have this, and not just buy the glass, but you can actually like anything that's on their buy the glass list, you can purchase tasters of. And so what I like to do, if I, especially if I'm going there with somebody who also really likes wine, is we will just order like 2 aperitifs, 2 sparkling wines, 2 still white wines, 2 rosés, 2 lighter reds, 2 heavier reds, and then we'll finish with a single dessert wine. Sometimes we'll get 2, but we'll get the tasters of them so we're not drinking too much and we'll split them between us. So we'll try, we'll, you know, like we'll pass the glasses back and forth. I did this with my friend Ivy and it was like just the most fun. And, and we were able to try, I mean, it was one of the reasons that I got to try that birth year Riesling. I got to try like a 1970, I think it was 1978 Riesling as well. And that was— and they had those on the buy the glass. They had older vintage wines on the buy the glass list. And it was just so cool. And like, I haven't even gone there to like order like bottles. They have an even more extensive bottle list. Yeah. So I would probably end up just going to Nobelrot and like buying a bunch of bottles from them. Yeah. Yeah. And then just like, I would find like, I'd like to go to some different wine shops. One of my favorite things to do is like go to different wine shops and talk to the like wine buyer and be like, what do you, what are you going to over and over again? And I actually had like, it was Speaking of the, the Fox and Chenin Blanc, I went to, there's this place, Mission, Mission Wine and Spirits that's in Altadena. My dad used to live over by Altadena. He recently moved up here, but so whenever we'd go visit him, we'd stop in at Mission and we would like go, you know, go there. And so there's one time that I was like, I went in and I was like, hey, what is one white wine that you are returning to over and over again right now? Like, what's the thing that you're like What did you just get in that you're really excited about? They took me over to the Foxen Shannon block and I was like, funnily enough, I don't need that one. So what's your second pick? Because I have so much. We are the same. We are the same. So I can't wait to see the second one. Yeah. I'm like, very clearly we have a really good, we have matching palettes here. Yeah. And so, and he, and he was like, oh cool. You know? And so then he like took me to, it was really funny because my husband works for Foxen now and he was with me and he was like, are you fucking kidding me? I can't get away from this. And so, yeah. So the, yeah. So the guy and he took me took us over to a different Chenin Blanc that was just also amazing. But yeah, I would like, I think that's what I would do. I would, I would take like my $1,000. I'd probably like go to Nobu Rot, probably easily spend a solid $500 there just on like tastings and bottles and stuff. Yeah. And then I would like try to find some like smaller wine shops that are well known for their, their selection. And I would just talk to the, the wine people and be like, what are you liking right now? Cause you can find some really interesting white. Like the first time I ever had a Sirtiko was at Mission Wine and Liquors. They were like, oh, I, you know, cause I asked my question. I was like, what are you excited about right now? What's a white wine that you're stoked on? And they were like, here's a Sirtiko and it's this Greek wine and it's really delicious. And let me tell you all about it. And I was like, okay, like I'm sold. And they like, like ring me up. Here's my credit card. Yeah. So I'd probably do that. And I would just like hit a bunch of places and be like, what do you like? What do you like? What do you like? You know, what are your recommendations? What wine shop would you go to if you didn't work here? Like that kind of thing, you know? And they, they usually have the best recommendations and yeah, cause it's literally their job. Right. Yeah. And they're just like waiting. They're waiting for somebody to be like, what do you like? That's what I want. You know? Oh my God. The way that people's eyes light up. And I love this when I like have gotten friends to do this too. Cause they'll always be like, they'll come, you know, with a bottle and be like, I did what you told me to do. And oh my God, the guy got so excited and was like wanting to show me this wine and this wine. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Us wine people love that shit. Yeah, they're ready. Yeah. Because you know, like we're, we're always thinking about like, okay, like how, you know, I know what I like, but you know, this person maybe doesn't have the same palate as me or like maybe like, so they, they're trained to be like, okay, what do you typically drink? Like, what do you, you know, whatever. And if you're like, I like all wine, I like it all. I trust you. What is the thing that's exciting you right now? And they're going to take you to like the most rarefied bottle. And it, and sometimes it's like maybe a wine that you've already had and then you're, then you know, like, you know, it's like a, the Foxen Chenin Blanc that you drink every fucking week and you're like, okay, cool, we're on the same page. Take me to your next, the next thing that you're excited about, you know? And then if you give them a budget, if you're like, hey, like, you know, that's typically what I'll do when I go, when I do this, I'm like, hey, I have like $100 burning a hole in my pocket. What would you spend it on? And then they'll be like, cool. And then they're like, well, And what I love about it too is like I did that when I went to Mission on this one trip, I was like, okay, what, what, what are you excited about in terms of like a still white wine? But also I need, you know, my dad's moving, we're kind of toasting the house, like all this stuff. Like we need a sparkling wine. We need some kind of sparkling wine, maybe champagne, maybe not. What is a wine in this price range? Like I think I, you know, right now I can go as high as like $80. And it was really cool cuz he's like, well, do you need it chilled right now? He's like, cuz that's gonna also change what we have. Available to you? And I was like, yeah, ideally chilled right now. And he's like, okay, cool. And then he like took me over to like their wine fridge that had all their sparkling wines. And he didn't like point out like the most expensive, you know, one that they had that fits within my budget. He like went kind of in the middle and he was like, this is the one that I'm most excited about. It's the one that I recommend to most people because it's friendly for most people. Like most people like it. And he's like, if you want to like go a little bit more, you can get this one. He's like, but there's also this one down here that's like $25. That's really delicious as well. And so I was like, cool. And so I ended up going, getting the kind of the first one that he recommended, because it was the one that he was like, this is the one that I like the most. And I was like, I trust you, like you have the same palette as me, so let's do this. So yeah, like give them your, you know, yeah, give them your, your budget and then give them some parameters because I think sometimes they can like, it's like they like are glitching out because they're like, oh my God, which one do I recommend first? You know, so give them some parameters like, oh, I, what's What still white wine are you most excited about right now? Or like what, like big heavy red, this is what I'm having for dinner. Like, what are you most excited about for this? If you were having this meal, what would you drink with it? You know, and here's my budget. Like, you know, and then, and then they'll be like, cool. And then they have like immediately, you can see them like flipping through like the Rolodex in their brain. And then they're like, it's, you know, it's like flipping behind their eyes and then they're like, go, they're like, hey, let's go do this. You know? Yeah, it's awesome. I love it. I love it. And that's— I hope that the more people hear that, because I give that advice all the time, go to your wine shop or go, you know, and like you said, give them a price point. They're not just gonna pick the most expensive one, which I think is what like you might think to do, especially with champagne or sparkling. Like, oh, I have $50 to spend, I'll buy a$50 bottle of wine. It's like, no, no, no, they can help you find one that's cheaper and even better. But I hope the more people hear it. Yes. And I hope more people that hear it go and like do this, do this more. But I think it's also the perfect way to end this episode as great advice. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining and sharing all of your insight on the wine world. It was a great, great time. Yeah, it was great talking with you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Cheers. Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. If you'd like to connect with Heather, see her beautiful photos, and continue learning from her, you can find her on Instagram at Craft and Cluster. If you're a wine professional or just genuinely curious, you can also subscribe to her Substack at winemarketingfieldguide.com. It's free to subscribe and her articles are always incredibly insightful. I am a subscriber myself. And while it's currently on hold, you can also find a few episodes of her podcast, Pour Memories. That is P-O-U-R. Clever, right? Pour Memories that she does with her friend Kristin at pourmemories.com. If you love this episode as much as I did, would so appreciate if you'd take a quick second, rate it, leave a review. For any small business owner, any small podcast host, reviews are so, so helpful. So if you haven't done that yet, go to Apple. If you're not listening on Apple right now, that is the best place to leave a review. You can find the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine on Apple Podcasts and just write a little review about what you like about the show. And of course, If you know a wine lover in your life that isn't listening to this podcast, please share it with them. They should be listening too. And if you'd like to show additional support for the show, you can become a paid subscriber. Click the link in the show notes and become a monthly supporter for $10 or less a month. This is not required. All of these episodes are available to you free, including my entire backlog. But if you wanted to show some more support, you can do that. You'll get a shout out out in the next episode I record. Plus, if you choose the $10 per month option, you'll get to choose a topic for a future episode. In next week's episode, we are talking about sweet wines, and we are debunking the wine myth that they're only for beginners or that they're always a lower quality wine. That simply isn't true. Thanks again for listening, and if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at Cork and Fizz on Instagram. Cheers!