Why Blind Tasting Really Matters w/ Marie Cheslik (Part 1)

Ep 134

What if blind tasting isn’t actually about guessing the wine at all but about learning to trust your palate?

In this conversation, author, sommelier, and content creator Marie Cheslik shares an unfiltered look at blind tasting, wine education, and the confidence-building process behind learning what you like. She explains the original purpose of blind tasting, why it’s rooted in regional typicity, and how she now uses the same framework to help everyday drinkers feel less intimidated and more empowered.

You’ll hear Marie talk about the tension between subjective tasting and objective correctness, why some tasting notes really are more “right” than others, and how comparing wines side-by-side teaches people far more than memorizing facts ever will. She also opens up about balancing a creative business with the stability of her nursing career, the myth of “going all in,” and the hard lesson she learned about time investment not guaranteeing growth.

If you’ve ever felt uncertain about how to describe wine, confused about what you’re “supposed” to taste, or intimidated by blind tasting, tune into this episode where you’ll get the  clarity, context, and permission you’ve been hoping for!

And don’t miss next week's episode which is part 2 of my chat with Marie where we dig into her book How to Read a Wine Label. 

Thank you to the following brands for sponsoring this podcast:

• Vacu Vin: Go to us.vacuvin.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 20% off your order!
• VoChill: Go to vochill.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 15% off your order!
• Wine Wash Co: Go to winewashco.com and use code CORK for 20% off your order, plus free U.S. shipping on orders over $35!

Connect with Marie

Instagram - @slikwines

Marie’s Book - How to Read a Wine Label

Website - https://www.slikwines.com/

Episode Highlights:

• How Marie discovered wine through restaurant work
  
  
• Starting Slick Wines during Covid and growing through virtual events
  
  
• Why she still works as a registered nurse
  
  
• The myth of “going all in” on your business
  
  
• What blind tasting is actually designed to teach
  
  
• Understanding typicity and classic wine markers
  
  
• The balance between subjective and objective tasting notes
  
  
• Using side-by-side tastings to build confidence
  
  
• Old World vs New World Chardonnay flavor differences
  
  
• Why storytelling connects better than soil talk
  
  

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bowman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business, Corporate Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total court dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in foreign. Welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. Today I have a really fun and really informative interview for you to enjoy. I am talking to Marie Cheslic. Marie Cheslick is an author, sommelier and a content creator under the name Slick Wines, which is the tail end of her last name. You may notice she's worked as a Michelin Star Wine Director and was awarded Future 40 by Wine Enthusiast for her refreshing take on wine education. Her new book, how to Read a Wine Label, helps people to understand what a wine will taste like without opening it. It's basically answering the question that I feel like everyone has when they go to the go to a wine shop or even if you're just at the grocery store looking to buy a bottle of wine is like you pick up the bottle, you look at the label and you're like, okay, how is this telling me what is in the bottle? It is so hard to tell. And I cannot wait to ask her these questions and learn more about kind of how she built up the structure and how she's going to help you figure out if you're going to like what's in the bottle without actually having to open it yet. I originally found Marie on Instagram, as I find many of my podcast guests, and just loved how she talked about wine. It's so incredibly informative, but more importantly, it's down to earth and really fun. She's actually really well known for her 62nd blind tastings where she gives tasting notes that aren't necessarily what you would think of right away. Like she adds in, you know, some realism, but then adds in the creativity. I've heard her say, you know, this smells like an old pirate ship and she's probably never smelled an old pirate ship, but it'll make you think of like you Know, like, the type of wood and the. You know, the salt. Cause it's out on the ocean, and I just think it's so fun. And as of recently, Marie has also opened up about working as a nurse while building her business, which is something I can very much relate to as I continue to work my day job while working Cork and Fizz. So I asked her about this as well during the interview. Without further ado, let's get into it. Hello. How's it going? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. You ready to dive in? Yeah. Let's party. Let's do it. Okay. Let's do it. All right. So starting off, I was just like. To start super simple. Who are you and what do you do? Yeah. My name is Marie Cheslik. I am a author, content creator, sommelier, and registered nurse. I run Slick Wines, which is my answer to approachable wine education. And I just wrote this book, how to Read a Wine Label. I have it right here. So exciting. Mine's on the way. It's still in the mail. I'm so frustrated. I am also frustrated. I'm gonna look into that for you. Oh, no big deal. It's probably just because it takes a little while to get out here to Seattle, or something's happening, but it's on its way. I'll double check, too, for you. Sorry. How good does it feel to say you're an author as, like, the first part of your intro? You know, it was not totally part of the intention or even, like, a life bucket list thing for me, but it just sort of worked out that way where this idea I had in this class I made really translated best into a book. And I saw a lot of potential with it. So, I mean, it feels good. Yeah. It's just like an unexpected turn in my career, which is great. Definitely. Well, let's start at the very beginning. This is one of my favorite questions to ask anybody who's big into wine. Basically, how did you fall in love with wine? Because I'm guessing as a fellow Wisconsinite, it probably wasn't around the dinner table. Cause if your dinner table was anything like mine, it had beer, if anything on it. That's correct. Spoken like a true Midwesterner. Wisconsin. Yes, exactly. I definitely didn't grow up drinking wine much like you. I grew up drinking Pabst Full Ribbon in basements and, you know, sneaking into bars, underage when I could. And I was not drinking wine in those situations at all. For me, it was more of a. It was a little More pragmatic because I started working in restaurants after nursing school when I was taking my boards exam. And I realized that wine was a huge part of the job of working in a restaurant, especially like a James Beard award winning or like a Michelin sort of higher level. And that's the restaurants I had been working in. I said, well, let's actually understand this wine thing because it's actually a pretty big part of the job. And when you first start out, you learn about what we call pocket wines. Just like even if you have a list of 200 wines, just pick three that you can kind of lean back on that aren't the cheapest, but maybe are like the second or third cheapest. So it's like you have something to talk about and that people get by with that all the time and I think that's great. But it was a way for me just to get more serious about working in hospitality and just proving to people that I was committed to being excited about it and being a part of it. And wine is also a great way to make it into a career in a front of house setting. Like in the restaurant world, like especially the era I was growing up in, it was like, you know, Anthony Bourdain and like celebrity chefs and like a lot of back a house like could kind of have clever ways to make it a more sustainable career for themselves. And I felt like the front of house version was wine. There's not like celebrity sommeliers, but just like as a way to put another tool in my tool belt, essentially. Yeah. Okay, cool. I like it. So it sounds like you kind of started your wine career in more traditional formal wine jobs, right? Working at one of them was like as a wine director at the one Michelin star restaurant, Elska. How did you make that move? Like, you know, the, the focus is now more on wine education. What made you do that? So, yeah, I mean, really starting in restaurants, that was like, that's what made me fall in love with it. And then Covid happened and really just like messed up the whole restaurant world, you know? And when I started working as a nurse again, I kind of ran two careers my whole life. So people are like, you did both? I'm like, yeah, kinda like sometimes I would take a couple years off the nursing thing, sometimes I would do both at the same time. It just sort of depended on what was going on in my life. But the education part came because Covid happened. Restaurants shut down and I wanted a way for wine to be in my life. And I thought it'd be kind of a cool opportunity just to start something in a time that nothing. There were kind of no rules and everything was unprecedented. So it's like, well, why don't we just. Why don't we just try something? Let's just try teaching people about wine and see we can make some money and see if we can go somewhere with it and have it make sense. So that's really where Slick wines came out. It was August of 2020 when we really officially started. And then I kind of knew when we started to that it would be. I didn't really know what direction it was going to go in because it was starting out at virtual events. And I'm like, well, virtual events aren't going to be forever. It's just a very temporary Covid thing. But we'll see where it takes us. And it's taken me a lot of different places, but it's been fun. Yes, I love it. Do you want to take us through a little bit? I'm just curious like how you went from virtual events to now what slick wine does, you know, what are all the things that you've done? Yeah. So started virtual events and did some kind of hybrid virtual in person events and then went into in person events. And as a way to advertise these events, I was doing, I was just like, I should just make content. Like I TikTok was in 2021. That's like really when TikTok started to go crazy. I feel like I started January 2021 really posting. Cause I really didn't want to pay for advertising. And I'm like, this is also a good way for me to practice in front of being in front of a camera, which I wasn't super comfortable with. I was more in person, you know, tableside or in a hospital. And so I was like, this will help me get used to talking on a camera too. And my first couple videos did really well and that was great. And it kind of gave me enough momentum just to keep going with. And I was getting leads because of it, which was also great. But then the social media thing kind of turned into a revenue stream in itself when people started reaching out to me for brand deals and especially in the wine world, especially restaurant wine world. A lot of wine regions want you to visit their winery or their region in general because it's like, well, you work for a Michelin star restaurant. We want our wines and our region's wines to be in your restaurant. So like come for a winery tour. And it's like that's awesome. But I can't go because I'm stuck at the restaurant. And that's sort of the catch 22 for a lot of hospitality people, wine directors, sommeliers. It's like you get a lot of cool opportunities, but you can't always take them. But social media was kind of an interesting way where it's like I was more of a media marketing perspective by that point. So it's like I could get to go and take these opportunities to either take a brand deal or go on these trips. So that kind of became part of the equation. On top of doing classes and then. On top of doing classes, yes. I came up with the idea for the book, which was how to read a wine label, which was sort of an extrapolation of a class I had already started doing. It was like explicitly about wine labels, but it was really just like being comfortable in a restaurant setting ordering wines and what that looks like. And then my wife suggested making content for that. So it's like it all kind of like interweaved in each other. I don't do events as much anymore, frankly. It's a lot of work. And for my clientele, which is very approachable and like entry level and I want to stay there, you kind of get just like a cap of like how much you can really make on it too. Unless if you have like on a hundred person event where it's like, okay, great. But really like the only way for me to make more money on events is to tap into luxury clientele using, you know, high priced wines. And I just. Those aren't my people. I think there's a lot of people who can. There's master sommeliers who can serve that crowd better. I am way more of a generalist and I'm way more. I say getting people zero to one and that's my joy. That's what I enjoy doing. So I said, you know, like, I'll do the events when they make sense. And actually also having the book as like a conduit to do those events too has been like really fun because it's like, yeah, I'll do like a book tour and a class at the same time, you know, so it's like I just found my niche and I'm really happy with it. But yeah, the combination of all the things is really what makes it work, I think as well. Yeah. And I think that makes a lot of sense with like the social media being where you kind of reach a lot of your audience because you're, you're basically looking for the people who, like, I. I find we kind of. We probably have very similar audiences in that sense where, like, you're already drinking really fancy wine and doing all that. You're welcome to listen to my podcast and watch my stuff, but I'm probably not, you know, you're not my target person. I want people like, you're drinking wine, but you want to know more about it, you know, and you want to try a different bottle. But every time you go to the grocery store or you go to the wine shop, you like, look at all of them. You get overwhelmed and then go grab that same bottle that you always have. Right. Well, exactly. And that's why I wanted to do this with you too, I think. Yeah, we're very aligned on that. And I. I really like that as well about you too. Yeah. Okay. I definitely want this podcast to focus on wine, but I think it's really interesting for both of us. We also have a similarity of working another job and using, you know, choosing to do something else. So right now, like you said, you are also a registered nurse and you've kind of been doing that your whole time. I basically want to talk about, like, would you share with listeners why you might advise folks to keep their full time job while working on something creative, like slick lines? Yeah, definitely. I'm glad you're touching on this too. It's not something I always get to talk about explicitly, like in the weeds like this or inside baseball like this. So for me, I have done both. I have done both where I've given like full time to slick and full time to nursing. And me personally, I think you need to try kind of both if you have the opportunities to do so. And for me, I like the stability of a W2 job. I clock in, I do the job, I clock out. And even like in a job like wine sales, which is something I definitely consider working for, like a great importer, I really care about. It's like a sales job is tricky because you can still, like, answer emails on the weekends. I really like my nursing job because it's so concrete. It's like you work hard for 12 hours and then you go home. Like, there's no way to do that job outside of the hospital. And I think that's powerful. So for me, it's like I work three days a week, I work 12 hour shifts, and that's it. And that's my commitment. And even like when I was really starting Slick, I was doing a travel nurse job where I was only really working One to two days a week. And that for me, I was like, I just liked having that. And even for a while, I was like, maybe I don't want to do the nurse anything at all. Maybe I'm gonna go full bore on Slick just to see what happens. But just because you put all of your time into something, this is a painful lesson I learned. That doesn't necessarily mean it's going to grow. Yeah, just because you put 110% into something does not guarantee the success. And that was painful because I think it's also very much due to, like, the market and, like, what you're really selling and understanding what you're really trying to sell to people. And when I was giving it 110%, I was really doing basically all events. And I was like, great. I have more time to do events and more time to also reach out to people for work, for, like, partnerships and the things that people organically came to me to. I was like, maybe there's something here. But I found it very challenging to do that full time. And I also found it more painful when it didn't work out. Cause you're like. You're like, damn, I'm putting everything into it. And all you can do is blame yourself in that situation. And it's like, I have no other excuse except for maybe I'm not trying hard enough. Maybe I didn't send enough emails, Maybe I didn't word it right, Maybe I didn't. Maybe my vision isn't clear enough. And all of those things can be true and not true at the same time, which is also frustrating about it. Like, you really are just throwing spaghetti at the wall until something sticks. The book is like, the most interesting thing to me because I've never had, like, a solid product that is very tangible for people to understand. Like, when we're talking about deals on social media or even events, it takes about five conversations for you to do the work, for you to get paid. It's not even like you have five conversations and then you get paid. It's like, it's such a long road for, like, the services that I provide. Like, services as a business is challenging. But selling a bottle of wine and people, even when I was going with slick, were like, oh, you make wine? And it's like, no, I don't make. Like, I never said that. But, like, people could not conceptualize, like, what my job was, which I think is understandable because I have been kind of like, again, throwing spaghetti at the wall. But now it's like, If I tell people I'm an author, I have a book, people are like, oh, a book. I read books. I like books. You know, it's just, it's so much more tangible for people to understand. So if I. If this book thing works where I can do it full time, that's when I'll kind of go like full bore on it. Meaning, like, I will find more placements for it and just really spread the word on it. And then that seems like a more viable business plan for me with Slick right now. And then if the events come and the partnerships come through social media, that's like a bonus for me. Like, I like treating nursing as my steady income, and then everything that happens with Slick is a bonus. But that's only because nursing is incredibly flexible. I didn't work as a nurse for three years and I still got hired, you know, like, I got hired on the medical surgical floor. So anyone who's working as a nurse knows that's kind of like a catch all floor that a lot of people don't like to work on. But I don't mind because I'm like, it's a job. And it got me back into working in hospitals again. And now I can, you know, if I want to go somewhere else now, I can, because now I've built up enough experience again. So it's like, it all kind of comes with a give and take. And I think you need to experiment but also be safe. So to answer your question in a long winded way, the nursing thing gave me the stability to play and try, and I'm thankful for that. And I think that gives people a lot of security, especially people who have kids, people who have to take care of family members, people with like, you know, I have a mortgage. That's like the, the most of my responsibilities in my life right now. I'm thankfully very healthy too. So I don't, you know, I have no medical expenses. So I have a lot of flexibility in my life too, which makes it easy. And even then, I still want a stable thing. So that's what brings me peace in all of it as well. It's like, if it doesn't work, it's like, that's okay. I still got a paycheck every two weeks. Exactly. No, and I, I feel the same way. I had a lot of people ask me when I started cork and fizz was like, okay, so when are you gonna go full time? Because they didn't like, think it was a serious business until I was doing that. And I've really come to the decision that I'm like, I think the answer is never. I don't think it's ever like. Because then the thing is too, at least for me, if I were to take Cork and Fizz full time, that would mean I couldn't just do what I want to do with the business. You know, like you, like you were talking about where, like, we want to reach a certain audience, we want to do a certain thing. And if I wanted to make money with it, like True Income to cover my mortgage, I would have to do things that, you know, would be the money makers and not just the things that I enjoy doing. Right, right. I agree, I agree. I mean, I could change everything and yeah. Lie to myself and say, yeah, I'm only. I'm also do luxury services. Right, right. I'll sort your wine cellar or whatever. I'm like, I don't care about. Yeah, I don't care about that. I would be miserable. It's like, I might as well just do the nursing job then. I'm not miserable at the nursing job. You know, and it's like as much frankly, sometimes. And I feel like you probably get like a little break, you know, your brain gets a break. I feel like it must be a good thing for like, to do two totally different things a lot of the time. And like your brain gets a break from each. Yes, that's a hundred percent true. And I really enjoy that too. It does kind of feed two different parts of me that I really enjoy kind of working. I'm like, I'm never getting Alzheimer's because I just like, keep like pushing myself all the time being like, nurse job and sales marketing business job. God, okay. And book writing. And so like, I like. I don't know, I like occupying my time in those ways too. So I feel that. Yeah, it's fun. Okay, so let's go back to wine. And I know we're going to talk a lot of the podcast about labels, but I'm really curious on, you know, one of the first ways that I found you was on social media and with your 60 second blind tastings. And I feel like a lot of people one enjoy just watching those, but have a lot of curiosity towards blind tastings. And so first, what do you consider the purpose of a blind tasting? Is it to guess the right answer? Is it just to, you know, deepen your sensory awareness? What. What would you consider the purpose of a blind tasting? Both of those things you said I would say the original intent and the, the reason I know how to do it is what I learned through the court of master Somaliers. And for them, they really want you to get the wine as close as possible by getting the wine as correctly as possible. So getting the correct grape and region and vintage without knowing what the wine is is a testament to the region that makes it. And it's a testament to the person tasting it, because it proves this point that there is a quality and a topicity. And when I say topicity, like a typical flavor sets or typical characteristics of a wine that come from a particular region. So if someone from Sancerre that makes wine that makes a true Sancerre classic Sancerre, anyone who knows what they're tasting should be able to know that this is a Sancerre. And therefore, the sommelier or whoever is tasting the wine kind of like it just reaffirms each other that, like, okay, you are a great taster because you caught onto these things. And they are a great winemaker for making a wine that is so typical of that region. So that's kind of the original thought process for blind tasting. I like using that framework. But having the goal be different, where the goal should be, that it's really just the journey along the way. It's okay if it's like a fun drinking game to you as well. Cause that's when I teach it. That's kind of what ends up happening at the end. It's really a way to put flavors into words for people. That's one of the harder bridges to start, is like, you're in a wine tasting, I'm sure you see it all the time, and they go, okay, what do you taste? And the joke is, it tastes like grapes. Har, har, har. It's like, yes, yes. But we can move beyond that. And like, how do we move beyond that is by stripping down every pretension or label or what you're supposed to taste or what it's supposed to be, because you have no idea how expensive this is, where this wine is from, what it's even made out of. If you hate Chardonnay and you're tasting a Chardonnay blind and you go, wow, I really like this. And you're like, oh, shit, I like Chardonnay. I'm like, oh, I'm. Is it okay if I swear on this podcast? Oh, yeah, you're good. Okay, great. That's the joy about being on wine podcasts is that everyone's an adult, so. Oh, yeah, yeah, not a problem. So for that is the goal for me is that we can use it as a tool to look at something so objectively and just have a conversation about tasting and about the wine without it being the societal pressure and implication of it should be this way or it should taste good because this is a $60 wine or whatever. So that's the joy I get out of it. And I think that's what people are interested to. In my tasting notes for the 62nd blind tasting, people are like, I want to taste like you. And I was like, yes, you can it. But it does, like, take a while to get there because I really do connect it with like, I'm. It's like some hippie woo woo shit. But like, I connect it with like memories and I connect it with an emotion and a feeling. And like, even though I've never smelled an old pirate ship, like, it's this idea of wet wood and mold and like salt on a plank, you know, so it's like, let's just combine all those things together. And to old pirate ship. I love that so much. That is because you're not like. I mean, it's scientific of like, the aromas go with memories. Right. But I love that you attach onto it this like, creative mindset as well, where you're like, okay, these are like legit things and legit memories that I have of these aromas. But then I'm gonna combine them together and into like you said, like a pirate ship that I probably don't have a, you know, a specific memory of. No. Yeah. Like, I have never. Yeah, I'm. I don't know what that actually smells like. If I smell an old pirate ship and be like, oh, yeah, maybe that's not an old pirate ship. But in my, like, yeah, that's probably what that smells like. And I get joy out of that. I think it's fun adding that creative twist to it. But yeah, and I think it's also approachable for like a lot of people where it's just like they're. They're realizing it can be fun, you know, it doesn't have to be. And this is a question I get all the time, so I'm curious your take on it. When I'm doing a wine tasting and I'm teaching people how to taste wine, you know, and we get to the aromas, I'm always very clear about, like, there isn't a right answer for what you are smelling in this wine. And I often tie it to, you know, your, your sense of smell is most tied to your memories. And, you know, your memories are different than everybody else. But I had somebody ask me just this past week and he's like, okay, but what about as a sommelier? Is there a right answer to when you are giving tasting notes to a wine? So how would you answer that? I love producing this podcast for you every week, but here's the truth. It's not free. That's why I'm so grateful for sponsors like the following brands supporting me so that I can share everything I love about wine with you. If you're able, show them some support back thank you to Vochill for sponsoring this episode. Nothing ruins the perfect afternoon out on the sunny patio like a glass of warm wine and ice might seem like the only option, but it just waters down your wine. That's where Vochill comes in. Vocill is one of my favorite wine gadgets. It keeps your wine perfectly chilled in your own glass. 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I would say, yes, that there are probably more correct or more typical things for certain places in the wine world and for grape varietals do have specific flavors. And this is something I kind of touch on too in the book, especially the intro, because the goal of the book is to know what a wine will taste like without opening it. And to do that, people need to kind of have an idea of the differences of how wine tastes and when they know when they don't like something or do like something. And so a really good example is Chardonnay from the New World and Chardonnay from the Old World and New World. And Old World is a classic concept in the Somali world wine world. And it's the idea that wines from the Old World, which is Europe, because this is a Eurocentric marketing strategy for wine, and it has been for the past 300 years or whatever, ever since the Benedictine monks started making wine. That is what we consider the Old World, the Old country. These wines are tart, fruit forward, or earthy as opposed to the New World. And that's anywhere that's not Europe is essentially how I describe it. So North America, South America, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, these wine regions are going to be fruit forward, juicy, bold, and also more likely to have this new oak characteristic to it. So I think an example of like when people say you can taste what you taste, and there is a truth to that, there is a subjectivity to tasting. But I think there's an objective factor to a couple things, and that's what I address in the book. For example, Chardonnay from California will most likely have some oak on it. It's changing, I know, but for the sake of the book and the sake of beginners, I am just using that because bread and butter wine still exists and Ron Bauer still exists. And these are very popular wines and they use a ton of oak on them. The oak tastes like buttered popcorn and vanilla. That's an objective tasting note that you should get. If you miss that in A wine we have to. We got to teach you to pick up on that. And so that's kind of my Somalia answer. And if you taste a Pinot Noir from Burgundy and the first thing you get is, like, cherry pop tarts, it's like, that's like, a very bold fruit forward. It's like, I'm not always convinced that's going to be Burgundy. It can be sometimes, but generally it's this, like, dried cherry. It's this, like, much. It's this much more tart flavor. Pomegranates, like, you should be picking up on those things from this region. But if we were going like, fresh strawberries, like, juicy, delicious, peak summertime strawberries, I am less inclined to believe that that's a wine from Europe. I'm more inclined to believe that maybe this is a Malbec from Argentina. There are some rules that I think are helpful, and to understand it in a binary for beginners is very helpful. Then we can go into nuance. And I've said this about wine people before. We just go zero to 60 way too fast, being like, well, so, you know, sometimes there's a ton of New World winemakers making Old World wine. And I'm like, that is so true. And that's a lot of the wines I do like to drink. I love Mossicom from Dan Prochowski, who pretty much makes it a European wine, but in Napa Valley. And it's like. But I can't talk about that yet because people don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Like, we have to start with more objective things. So I would say, yes. There are some things where I'd be like, if someone didn't catch butter in the Chardonnay, if they didn't get butter popcorn in the California Chardonnay, I'd be like, I have this jelly bean game that I use in there as well. It's like, if I had the opportunity to have a buttered popcorn jelly belly, like a butter popcorn flavored jelly bean, I'm like, taste this jelly bean. Or go to the movie theater and eat some popcorn or just smell the movie theater and remember that and then smell this wine again. Like, I would be like, you really? That's the connector. It's like, you are missing this piece, and maybe just because you're new and you don't know how to smell it, you can't pick it up yet. And that's okay. It just takes time. So I do think, like, it's okay to be the instructor or the person in the tasting room and say, like, I get that, but, like, the big thing here is this, right? Sure. Because I think that's actually more helpful for people than to be like, you can taste everything. And it's like, well, if I taste everything and I'm never wrong, how am I ever gonna learn? Because it's not actually right all the time either. Yeah. Oh, that's such a fair point. And I like too, that, you know, like, I'm already thinking of, like, ways that this, like, helps somebody who's learning how to taste wine and learning what they like. Because you're right, if it's always just. If it's just what you think you're tasting and you're still so new at it, you might be picking up notes that aren't necessarily there. And if you, you know, if you tell those, then to somebody, like a wine shop, you know, owner or, you know, a sommelier at a restaurant, they might misunderstand what you like. Right. So if you say, I really like this snap of Chardonnay. Cause it's just got a lot of good lemon and, you know, and pineapple. And I'm, you know, and there's no oak to it. And they're like, okay, now I'm confused. Which one? Which one of those. Which of those do you like? So it's more about, like, you're not wrong with the tasting notes that you pick up. Or as you're starting, like, you gotta start somewhere. Yeah. But then as you start to taste wine more, it's more about can you pick up these differences? Which sounds a lot like, to me, the really fun opportunity to do, like, the side by side tastings of like an oak Chardonnay, a non oak Chardonnay. Taste the difference. And then that's a great way to kind of pull out what it is or tastes like. Like you said like a Burgundy Pinot Noir from France and then a California, you know, Pinot Noir from the Sonoma County. And like, put those next to each other and recognize where they're different because that's. It's almost like taking your tasting to the next level. Like, first just start and say things that come to mind because you gotta get yourself started. But then you can, like, go that next step. And that's kind of where your, like, right answers are for the tasting notes. Yes. And like, people are generally tasting wine in a tasting room where it's like, here is our Chardonnay. And you're like, you're tasting one Chardonnay. Like, it would be super Helpful to have two Chardonnays next to each other and be like, this is what makes our Chardonnay special, is that you get things like this that you don't get in this. But in a tasting room, they don't do that. They want to sell their wine. You know, so for consumers who like going to the tastings but don't really know, like, what they're tasting, which is most people who go to a tasting room, by the way, it's exactly. It's like having the comparison doesn't necessarily make them wrong. It just shows them. It's like, this has this and this doesn't. And I'm going to show you. Yeah, yeah. And I think taking, like, in terms of the right answer, because the other thing I thought of when you said tasting room is a lot of times when people are trying to sell wine, they're going to describe it with certain tasting notes. They're going to be romanticized, and they're going to focus on things that sell more than necessarily like, they. Not that they're wrong, but more like their. Their goal is to sell you the wine. Yeah. And so if the market in general isn't into oaky wines, they're not going to mention a lot of oaky notes because they don't want you to be, like, turned away from it. And so my other. At least in my head, I'm thinking, don't necessarily, like, when you're. If you're at a tasting room and they just have the notes written down, don't necessarily take those as the right answer. More in, like, educational settings where somebody's teaching you about these different things in the wine. And if the winemaker is actually there saying things, I. I would trust them as well. But sure. But even, like, the winemaker doesn't always make the connection with the consumer. The winemaker does a great job making wine, but that does not mean they should be in marketing or sales. Like, they made a great product, but these are two different jobs. Seldom do I see a great winemaker who's also a great salesperson. But stranger wine company out of Michigan, Max, the winemaker, he is. He's great at both, but, like, he is an anomaly. Most winemakers are, like, don't know how to talk to, like, the nurse or the mom or the teacher or the lawyer about, like, this is what we're going for. Like, they're. They're better off telling the story behind the wine than necessarily telling you what you should be drinking. Just being. Or even just saying, hey, we use Something called a concrete egg, which is a little strange because most people ferment in oak. Both are porous, both allow on air, but the concrete has this particular flavor to it. That's an educational opportunity. And if a winemaker can explain it in a way that actually makes sense to the consumer, like, that's huge. But that doesn't happen very often. That's really where I can see, like, the person in the tasting room that would be a great sort of intermediary for them, being, like, they should be able to translate what the winemaker saying, talking about ph and residual sugar and blah, blah, blah. Like, and even soil type. It's like, take the nerdy things, process it, and then put it in a way that does respects, like, whatever ethos the winery has of being, like, we are very specific or, like, we really do care about these things. And then translating it for the consumer, you know, it could be a lot of things, I suppose, like, barefoot. Like, they have a winery, they have a. They have a winemaker who really knows what they're doing. But they're also, like, we sponsor the Super Bowl. We just want you to have a nice time, you know, and it's like, great. And they don't care about concrete eggs, or no one gives a shit that they use them. You know, it's like. But maybe Max cares a little more because he's a little more intentional, and that matters to him more. Right. Yeah. So also want to consider. Oh, man. I just, like, I can't wait until. That would be cool if, like, I wish I had more, like, social proof that, like, the way I think about marketing in wine actually drives more sales. And that would be, like, a kind of interesting conversation in the future, too. But it's just like, I just think the way that a lot of people talk about wine is so wrong. Yes. And gives it all bad reps. You. Talked about the like. Like, soil is a great example. And I know we're going off on a tangent, but I love this kind of conversation, too, because, like, I think that even as a wine person, like, I've done so much research into wine, I'm very, you know, I call myself a cork dork. I love hearing about all the things. When you tell me the soil that the grapes were grown in, that still doesn't really tell me much. I don't know what that means necessarily, you know, and, like, my favorite wineries have been ones that are like, you know, and even the ones that, like, show you what the soil is. And I'm like, great. Okay, cool. That's what it looks like. But still, what does that translate to? To what I'm drinking. And, like, best wineries have been the ones that can actually then explain. You know, they're like a. Here are the three Pinot noirs, you know, and they're each from a different block. And one of the things that's different about each of those locations is the type of soil. And this one, you know, this one we decided to do this with because, you know, and then bringing it down and talking about, like, something that's approachable to what you're tasting and not just saying all these fancy terms that, like, tend to go with wine. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. It makes me think about also what. I was just there, so maybe it's top of mind for me. But Max makes wine in Michigan on limestone soils, and it's very similar to the kimmeridian soils that they have in Chablis. So, like, let's make that connection. It's like, yeah, you can say it's limestone soils with, like, you know, ocean sediment in it, which is already kind of an interesting story, because they're like, there's oysters in the wine. And it's like, yes, that's, like, kind of cool. And that is, like, an interesting point to make. But it's like, okay, I'm in the new world. I'm in Michigan, but I have chardonnay, and I have these soils, and I love Chablis. So, like, why don't I try to make my Michigan version of this? So it's like, oh, that's interesting. Like, but that also requires context, being like, oh, I like Chablis, or I don't like Chablis. His is a little more advanced, and when we get into soil types, of course, we're talking about more advanced concepts, but most people are into. Wine is fun. I like wine. I like sangria. I like barefoot. It's, like, great. Yeah, it's also. That is totally fine. Wine is a fun beverage as well. It's meant to be. I mean, half the time, it's just. I think it's more about the experience you're having around the wine than the wine itself. Half the ones that I love are because I either love the people making it, or I loved the experience that. I had while I drank the wine 100%. I was at a tasting with Under Houston Mack, and he's like a big YouTube. He's. He's had a whole wine career. He worked at French Laundry and makes wine, and he's done Everything. He's probably in his 50s, but now he does videos for Bon Appetit, for, like, very introductory videos and very helpful videos about wine. But all he did at his tasting was really tell stories, and people loved it. He's like, yeah, I make wine in Oregon because I think this is the best place in the world to grow wine. This is a gamme, by the way, when I was at French Laundry, you know, and he would just, like, tell us a story, you know, that was, like, sort of inspired the wine, but also, like, sometimes not really, but it didn't matter because he was just, like, such a good storyteller that I was like, I really just felt like I was paying to see him in a show where he tells his stories, and it was sort of connected to the wine that he. Right. He, like, paired the wine with his stories more so. And I was like, if I ever make wine, that's gonna have to be the shtick. It's like, yeah, I could tell you that, like, I'm from Wisconsin and I want to make mine in Wisconsin, and that's compelling and it's. Right. But it's like, you gotta just have, like, a ton of stories. Just have a. A gazillion stories in your back pocket. And that's the way that's what really people want for the most part. It's so true. Especially newer generations, I feel like they want to know. They want to know the story behind the wine. They don't care about the points. They don't care about the. All the fancy details. Well, not even, like, you know, And I think this narrative of, like, the story has been happening for wine in a while. Like, oh, tell the story. But it's like, it has to go beyond. This is a husband, wife team in the Loire Valley who's been making wine for the past 30 years. It's like, that's all fine and good, but I would much actually rather know, like, what the wife or husband used to do for work or, like, what are their hobbies or, like, what kind of, like, actual people. Are they, like, did they. Did they ever fight in an international airport? Like, these are things, like, I really want to know. It's like, how was your relationship? Like, people just kind of like, you know, I want to hear more of that, even if it's not related to the wine at all. But I just think people like stories and it's like. And the stories can be semi centered around the wine as well. But it's like, what's it like working with your partner? Did you. And like, was it challenging? Did you enjoy that? Like, what were the challenges making this wine that you guys came across? Like, did something explode in the winery and you had to clean it up together and that's why you have less of the wine this year? Like, that is more. I think that's cool. I think that would be way more interesting than just saying, like husband, wife, team from this place in this part of the world with these soils, here's the wine. It's like, like it's kind of a story. It's a little better, but it's not really what we're looking for, in my opinion. Well, and it's the whole reason that like podcasts like this can exist because those are exactly the questions that I ask winemakers and I ask people and people want to hear them, right? Because it's like even us talking here, it's like my main audience is consumers, but they still want to hear the behind the scenes of like what's going on and how does all this work? So yeah, I do too. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. If you haven't already, I highly recommend purchasing Marie's new book how to Read a Wine Label. You can do so on Amazon or you can purchase it directly from her Publishing Company, Peridot publishing.commarie-cheslic I will have that link in the show notes if you'd like to purchase directly from there. And be sure to follow Marie on Instagram to continue learning about wine and to see her fun 60 second blind tastings at Slick S L I K Y at Slick Wines. If you love this episode as much as I did, you know the deal. Take a quick second. If you have not done this yet, go ahead and pause. If you are on Apple Podcasts. Simple. Just open your phone, open your your phone to the app, see where you can write a review for this podcast and rate it. If you're not on Apple podcasts, go ahead and look it up on there and leave a review there. It would mean so much. But you could also just send me a message on Instagram, send me an email, let me know if that you're enjoying this podcast. It just, it really makes my day. In next week's episode, you'll hear part two of my interview with Marie where we talk about what information you can expect to find in her new book. Kind of considered a little preview how her book differs from other other educational wine books out there. Marie's Go to Bottle of Wine to share with friends and so much more. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me orkandfizz on Instagram Cheers.