A Washington Winery Built on Inclusion w/ AniChe Cellars (Part 2)

Ep 115

What if the wine industry’s diversity problem isn’t a lack of people but a lack of acknowledgment?

Today, I have Anaïs and Rachel from AniChe Cellars back on the podcast and they are sharing their honest take on representation in the wine industry. They share why true diversity in wine goes beyond who owns the winery as well as how much of the industry’s skill, labor, and soul is often overlooked. They reflect on Rachel’s time with the Washington Wine Commission, the systemic issues that still exist, and the shifts needed to make wine more equitable and accessible.

They also take us behind the scenes of their sparkling winemaking process, from bottle fermentation and hand-riddling to the hands-on care behind every release. Plus, Rachel and Anaïs each share their top three wine picks for anyone wanting to try AniChe wines, along with their favorite food pairing that says it all: salty and bubbly!

So, if you’re curious about how winemakers are reshaping the future of wine and want a look inside a Washington winery that is doing things differently, this episode is for you!

And don’t miss part 1 of my conversation with Rachel and Anaïs of AniChe Cellars!

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Episode Highlights:

• Challenges and efforts in promoting diversity

• Representation and the value of vineyard workers

• Generational shifts shaping the future of wine

• Ethical and inclusive practices in winemaking

• Top 3 AniChe wine recommendations

• Sparkling wine production at AniChe cellars

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Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bolman and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business Cork and Fizzling. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable. And lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Foreign. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. Today you'll be listening to part two of my interview with Anais Mehra and Rachel Horn, the daughter mother. I guess I said it the other way this time. The daughter mother winemaking team at Aniche. Cellars in the Columbia Gorge region of Washington State. If you haven't heard part one of this interview, I have highly recommend. You can pause this episode, go listen to episode 114 and then come back and finish the interview here. As a reminder, Aniche Cellars was established in 2009. Their goal was to champion red and white blends from Washington State. Now, as a second generation winemaking family in the Columbia Gorge, they make estate white and sparkling wines and estate reds as well. They're very proud of the vineyard that they now own themselves. It's always women made. Their goal is renewing the tradition of women making wine. They are very low intervention and have vintage driven wines. In this episode we'll talk more about diversity in Washington wine and not just in winemaking, but in the vineyards as well. Rachel and Anais's Top three Wine Picks for anyone wanting to try Aniche Cellars Wine plus, they're going to share their ultimate food and wine pairing. And they both agreed on this one. And I'll give you a little hint, it is salty and bubbly, which is. Also how Rachel and Anais felt like. They could describe themselves as well. And there'll be so much more. It's a great conversation and I hope you enjoy it. So let's get into it. I definitely want to talk about your wines. I'm like, already now? I'm like, you just started like mentioning some of them. I'm like, ah, okay, we're going to get to those. But I have one more question around the vineyards. And this, again, also came from your social media in that it's something that I think is really important for everyone to hear, and especially right now. I know folks might be listening to this later on in the future, might. Not be listening to it in the. Now, but on social media. You mentioned how. You know, at one point it was said that Washington State wine. The industry is not very diverse. When you. When you look at the people of it and you guys disagreed, you said, no, it is diverse. The problem is that half the people and the people that recommend or what do I want to say, like, they. They represent the diverse part of Washington wine. Don't get a seat at the table. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that? I think Rachel's gonna start first because she had a hand in kind of that initial. Yeah, definitely. So in 2016, I was nominated to join the Washington State Wine Commission. And I served on the commission for six years. My primary interest was pretty much this. It was dei. And it wasn't just about dei. It wasn't just dei. It was also inclusion of small wineries for large wineries. It was. It was just trying to even things out because. Inclusion of eva, need for representation, all of that. And we started a DEI program. A lot of people did some hard work on it. But I just remember that one of the meetings I was in was I'd been on the board for about eight months. We were up in Woodinville, up at Chateau St. Michel's one of their wonderful buildings. And we were up there, and there were probably a hundred people in the room, and not a single person was a person of color, and they were 90% male. And I was the first woman on the wine commission for a long time when I was the first one serving on the wine commission besides Brian, who was an appointed from the state, the AG program. So I was the only sort of elected member, female member at the time. And I stood up and I asked. I was like, well, what are we doing to promote diversity in our industry? And dead silence. And I said, well, why don't we look around the room and see how many people of color are here? And the look on their face. I mean, they hadn't even acknowledged that. And then the answer was, the problem is we don't have diversity in the wine industry. That was the answer. The chair said that. And at that point, it was like, I don't agree with that because I work in the vineyard and I work in the field. I worked in the restaurant industry. I worked in tasting rooms. I mean, look at the diversity in tasting rooms, at least just representation of women and the intersectionality of those women who are pouring in the tasting room, looking at everyone working in the vineyard and the diversity of people working in the vineyard. So it. It was a conversation. We needed to reframe that conversation. And I think that that was a product. I think that's a generational thing too. There's also this generational concept. And Ani and I are, you know, we kind of go head to head sometimes on this. But the wine industry, up until about 10 years ago was dominated by white males over 50. Right. It was a boomer market. They were 70% of the purchasing power. It had a totally different take. Women were actually the purchasers of wine. Yeah. I mean, 68% of wines were purchased by women. But it was all, you know, talk about the certain kind of palette that was geared towards a male palette, feminine palette. Yeah. And so we needed to understand that if the wine industry is going to survive, let's face it, boomers are. Their discretionary income is gone, 60% of their discretionary income is gone. And boomers are mostly retired, and they are no longer. And we're seeing this in the industry and the buying power of the industry. So if we do not change the dynamic of diversity in our industry, the wine industry is going to lose. We have Xers taking over, but it's a tiny generational gap. And then millennials are. You look like you're a millennial. I am, yes. I'm also millennial. Millennials don't have a lot of fidelity to wine. There is a all over the board, a lot of drinking patterns, wine drinkers, people who are in our industry, we millennials have to take a seat at that table and really be heard. Whether it is an issue of gender or race or education, upbringing, whatever, they have to have a seat at the table. It's really, really important. The main reason that I see that needs to change is this idea is for Americans as we drink it. So, I mean, the start of why not of wine? I started wine. We're immigrants. Haha. But the kind of where it became in a national and our domestic wine market, it became a kind of a synonymous with class. And that is a big problem. We know what's happened in the last hundred years, 150 years with class in this country and who controls wealth and why. This is a big part of why. I feel like we're all feeling what we're feeling right now. Right. But wine is a ancient food Beverage that we have had for as long as we have been growing things in the soil and sticking around to see what. Right. 8,000 years. And it was started by being made by brown women. Yep. With brown women, by the way. And I think once we get past these ideas of what wine means, we will have more accessibility and equity in our industry. So, so much of what I see on a daily basis are people my age, but also multi generational. You know, it's across the board. People are recognizing this problem in this industry and they're speaking up about it. They're making their voices heard. There are publications, wine reviewers, you and I. There are so many people who are recognizing that we need to be part of the celebration of bipoc winemakers, of queer winemakers, of younger winemakers, of women winemakers. All these different voices are really important. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that was something that you guys spoke about on social media, where it was like, yeah, beyond just the winemakers, look at the people who are in the vineyard, like those. That's why there's a huge amount of diversity. Yeah. And that's where a lot of the skill is. And I think that's one of the things that kind of gets glossed over is the amount of skill it takes to do that job is huge. So huge. Yeah. You have to know so much about what is going on with that Vine. You have to make 10 different decisions at pruning time. Yeah. And then you step to the next one and you have 8, 000 of these to do. Yeah. It's just. It's amazing the amount of skill that it takes even to prune. Right. Well. And don't we say that like we. Say the wine is made in the. Vineyard, which, like, that's the most important part. Just a quick reminder, if you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under$15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now, let's get back to the show. And if it's made in the vineyard, it's primarily made by a Latino immigrant or a Hispanic worker. And that is something that is so, so important for an infant female often. Yeah, actually a lot. Mostly women. And one of the people that we continue to work with that we source fruit from is the Boucher family. They're fantastic. They grow wonderful wines in Yakima Valley. And one of the reasons we work with them is because of how they treat all of their employees. And that is just so incredibly important for us. And, you know, that kind of dignity and respect and just like, basic humanity that we have goes across all spectrums, from the winemaking side to our customers, to the very, very skilled people that we have hired to help us in the vineyard. That is so, so important. And I don't think until we have so many more systematic changes, in fact, as far as, like, just institutionalized racism, that we're going to even address the fact that this is huge and it's hard work and it needs to be respected. Good news is, though, like, the work that I did, even just 10 years ago, it was dismissed and laughed at. When I said things, I was kind of a joke because of. I was always bringing these things up. And now it's not anymore. Now it's. It's mainstreamed. And people. People listen now there was some pushback. You know, they always say that there's. That the backlash. There's the people like me. You get laughed at first and ridiculed, and then there is the backlash. But what about isms? And then it becomes more mainstre. I think we've. We've gone through those first hurdles, and now we're in a place where, okay, now let's roll up our sleeves and figure out how we can be more integrated. The real jam of this is that it is economically the only viable way through. They have to do, has to be done. There's no choices. Yeah, the owners are still rich white guys. They think that that is the conversation about what diversity is, and it's not. We understand that, you know, there are. It's like everything else in the world, the consolidation of ownership is becoming more intensified while the rest of us are on the outside, but the rest of us are the ones who buy wine. So making good choices, understanding who your producers are, understanding what kind of policies, their values. I think for our generation, I feel like we are going to spend 40 bucks on a bottle of wine. We need to be told a story that resonates with us on so many different ways. It does. Not just that it tastes good. It has to be a part of our story as well. And it isn't just about small producers. Like, you can go to a grocery store and find decent wines with people who have great DEI policies. And they. They really treat Their people. Well, and get a grocery store wine. So it's not just about the, you know, having to go to small producers. That's a great idea. We obviously endorse that. But I mean, who hasn't had to forgot their wine and hasn't had to stop at. Right. Or, you know, the grocery store. To bring a bottle to an event and knowing what their policies are just takes. We all have it in our hand. It takes three minutes in the. In the grocery store. I like this wine. It's on sale. What are their. What are their policies? And just vote with your dollars. So. Yeah, no, that's such a great point. And good point too. Right. You can. Instead of just searching for is this wine good on Vivino, also look into the. The policies and. And the. How the wine is made. Yeah. There's a lot of really, really terrible practices that produce excellent wines. That is fair. That is fair. Well, let's. Let's talk about your wines now. We need to talk about. Because I'm like, I'm so excited. By. First time I had them was at Taste Washington, and they blew me away. So I don't expect you to talk about all of them. But I feel like a good way to do this and this is a fun way, especially since there's two of you to talk about it. What I want you to do is let's imagine someone wants to try Aniche wines and they're. They're gonna buy three bottles. What are. I know. I'm like making you choose between your kids. I'm so sorry, but what are. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what are the three wines? And you can each pick different ones. So I'll ask you separately. So whoever wants to start, what are the three wines you would recommend that feel like, best represent your winery? And you think that, like, would be. Good for someone to try if they're introducing themselves to Nietzsche. Yeah. I'll go first. I think we have to stick in a state wine in there. I work so hard. We work so hard to make this state wine. So we better stick one of those in there. Bubbles as well. And then I would go with one of our flagships. So I would probably choose our Riesling, our Seraphina. It is delicious. We make a boatload of it. And it is so bright and beautiful and fresh and not sweet. Dry. It's very dry. Greasy. It's just like. It's also such a great representation of the Columbia Gorge. So I would do the Seraphina. My bubbles. God. I just opened one up because we're going to release it this weekend is our Puck. It's like super delicious. It's softer bubbles. I took one of yours. We can have the same. And yeah, I love it. It's just like a beautiful, like, fresh. It's done in a Charmont method, so it's like, not too complicated as far as it's like, palette is concerned. Or it's mousse structure mousse or bubbles. I don't know if you know anyone. The mousse is the bubble format. The bubble. I love it. And then for one of our flagships Back in 2009, my mom made four different reds. Atticus is a Syrah. Our GSM is our moth Love. Our classic Bordeaux is Goat Boy. And then the one I always kind of fall for is Orlando. It's a Tempranillo. Little bit of Grenache in there. And we've been making it since 2009. And I. I love this wine. We started sourcing again from the Columbia Gorge. Our neighbor stuff. We actually farm our neighbor's property as well as ours, which brings our total up to like 24 acres, which is crazy. And it's gorgeous every year. I. I just, I love seeing it happen. I love seeing it get riper and riper as we move on to these growing seasons. But those would be my three. It'd be Seraphina. Our Bubbles Puck. We make a bunch of different bubbles and then one of our flagships, which is Orlando. So Tempranillo. I love it. It's kind of my go to. Go to right now. I think I tried the Tempranillo. Did you bring that? Yeah, it was Ani. Yeah, yeah, it was the Tempranillo and the last of Clipson's Nebulo. Yes, that's right. Yes, I remember. They were Italian varietal or not Italian. But European varietals that you don't see around here as much. Yeah, totally. It fun going to the Clipson table at Taste Washington and being like, I have the last of your nibbiello that you pulled on a Taste set. And they did. Yes. It was fun. It was fun. I love it. Okay. All right, Rachel, your turn. What are your three? You recommend? No, I think I'll do. I'll only do one estate. Yeah, our Estate Bubble. We make a high end bottle conditioned method champenoise blend between chardonnay and a 115 pinot clone called Oberon. Ani's been making our oberon for like three years now. We've been doing it since 22, yeah. Few years. I mean, she's doing a beautiful job. Oberon is gorgeous. And it is, like I said, bottle conditioned. It lays down for two and a half to three years. It is, I think, spectacular. I love the mix of. I think we're kind of nailing the cuvee down with the flavors, and then also the winemaking that's going into it is just stunning. That's one that is an estate bottle. And then, yeah, it's beautiful. And then I have to say, I always smell. We're not really doing this much anymore, so we have a little bit left. We have maybe two more years of vintage left. But we've been making a wine called Goat Boy for from the beginning. It was one of the flagships, and it is a Left Bank Bordeaux. This blend is a blend I make for me and me alone. And if people like it, great. But I like to just make it because it's the. What I want to drink. Yes. You know, winemakers, you make like. We have quite a few. We have two other Bordeaux that we make for a buyer and in mind, a certain sort of demographic and then. But this one is the one I wanted, so it's typically between 3 and 4 varietals. It's almost always a Cab Merlot, Cab Franc and a little Malbec. But sometime in the past, we've had Petite Bordeaux and even some. What's the other one? A Carmeniere. I did have that in the first year. I sourced some Carmen Air, but it was way under ripe. It didn't work. So anyway, so that's. Goat Boy would be my second, and my third is we source from Dick Boucher. Ani just got a 94 on this one. Yeah, it used to be called Bombadil, but we were worried we were going to get sued by the Tolkien Corporation, so we were like, oh, we can't use that word anymore. So we changed it to Baba Yaga. And it is a blend between. Usually between Grenache Blanc and Peak pool. Absolutely delicious. Ani, I have to say, it used to be a blend. Oh, no, that was Lizzie. It used to have Russo Marsan and Picol in it, and then it turned into Grenache Blanc Mars. Anyway, it's evolved over the years. She's doing really well with it. It's really gorgeous. She somehow understands Baba far more than I ever did. But it's. The fruit from Boucher is just. Just gorgeous. And it's. It's a beautiful wine. It's one of my favorites. It's unique. So if you're like us, and I'm sure like you, and like so many, probably of your listeners, you are wine curious. And so this is Joy of the wine world is that you can go down a rabbit hole and you can find something so delicious and amazing, and just this blend of. It's typically a blend. The Grenache Blanc was gorgeous, but it's typically a blend between the Grenache Blanc and the peak pool. And those two flavors together are. There's just this lovely dance. It's almost like you can very distinctively pick out these varietals. Sometimes you blend it through, and it's really hard to distinguish, but the varietals are very distinctive in Baba Yaga blend, and just to pick them out and taste them through is just amazing. And again, it's. It's a Dick Boucher fruit, and we are thrilled to still be on his list. Yeah, yeah, that's like. That's like the top of the wine world in Washington for. For grapes, for sure. Was there when you were tasting? No. Maybe. Yes. I went to one of the seminars. The White Wine of Washington seminar, and he was in there, and it was very cool. Someone pointed out. He's like, hey, do you know who that is? Yeah. He's also. They're just lovely human beings. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Fun. So for folks who are listening, it sounds like you can purchase the wine online. Correct. So you can go to anichasellers.com and then you have a discount code, and I'll put it in the show notes. Folks can use cork and fizz and spelt out. So cork and Fizz to get 30%. Off their purchase to try any of. These wines that you're recommending and of course, any of the other ones on the site that look fun and exciting because there are plenty of them. All right. I love it. Okay, we're getting towards the end here, but I do want to talk a little bit about sparkling wine, because I think that's not made as frequently in Washington. So what inspired you to start making sparkling wine, and why is it important that you have it? I'm so grateful to the sponsors who help make this podcast possible, and Today's sponsor is one I personally love. Wine.com. you know, I'm all about exploring new wines, but let's be real, it's not always easy to find unique bottles, especially if you're limited to what's near you. That's why I love shopping on wine.com. they have a huge selection wines at every price point. User friendly search features and real wine experts ready to help you find your next favorite bottle. And here's a special deal just for you as a podcast listener. Get free shipping on orders over $150. And@wine.com CorkFizz with promo code Corkfizz. My recommendation, build a mix of 6 to 12 bottles to try some, you know, some you've never heard of. Not sure what to pick. Message me. I'd love to help or take advantage of the live chat wine experts@wine.com. Yeah, totally. So the Columbia Gorge, I would say, is pretty apt for sparkling wine. We're seeing some vineyards and spots within the Columbia Gorge that are perfect for that. And for us, I feel like our, like, segue into bubbles really started, I think, because we just needed a little palette refresh, you know what I'm saying? Like, there are so many, like, really beautiful, very bold, heavy hitters in Washington. And we were making some of them. We still make some of them. And I think for us, we were just like, God, I just need a little. I just need a little lift, you. Know, I think the first vintage I made a bubble. It was a Chenin Blanche, was a Chanel. Yeah. And part of it was that it's another avenue to go down in winemaking that is super geeky and requires a lot of getting into. And I was just at a point where I was feeling like, okay, I. Got this down, I can do something else. I love bubbles, so I love, love, love bubbles. So there's that. And you kind of want to make. What you want to drink, but a couple different styles that we do. And that's kind of when, you know, when you want to start experimenting again. So you kind of, like Rachel said, you kind of nail like, okay, we got this down. Let's do something fun. And, and fun also for us equals more work. I don't know if you are aware. I was going to say, like, yeah, sparkling wine is so much harder. In fact, right now, if you can't hear, you probably can't hear it. But Tom is riddling right now. Yeah, my husband's in the back riddling. He made these riddling racks by hand because they're very hard to get ahold of. We didn't want to fork over the money for like these big Giro Palais, so we're doing it by hand. So, yeah, so we do a couple different styles. So the first ones are going to be more of a Charmont method, which means that it's. It's just quite simple. It's showcasing More of the vineyard, the vintage and the winemaking style. I'm sorry, not winning style, the variety. And then those are our peas blossom and our puck. And we started doing fermentations in the bottle. So a very traditional method of. We've made an ancestral before that was kind of just for fun, you know, that's the whimsy part of the winemaking where you have extra fruit and you're like, let's just do it. Let's make a whole nother label, let's get a cola, let's market, try to market it, the whole thing, you know, and then the other ones. Speaking of the Boucher family familiar, we have a Marsan that we do with them. We use a different type of yeast product for that. Just have a quicker turnaround. So uses about the same amount of laying down. So once you inoculate and try start your secondary ferment, it ferments and then it lays down on its side. It's called a traj. And it happens for a period of time. A lot of bubbles that are fermented in the bottle. It's usually about a year or more. The Titania that we do with Marsan, I think that you've had, I think we were pouring it. It's about like 24 months or more. And then our state stuff. And then like you said earlier, just for. Just for shits and giggles, we did a blanc de blanc and a blanc de noir style. And this is all hand done. Like, it's crazy how many times you touch a single bottle. Like, Tom's doing it right now. He's touching. And that's only. I think it's only like 20 cases at a time. So we're riddling around 20 cases at a time. It's being hand disgorged, hand corked. We have our label or machine set up. I'm looking at it right now. There's so much input that goes into this. And that's just like the basic mechanics of the winemaking. It's not necessarily so much heart that you have to put into this product when you're building up a yeast. One time I had to build up a yeast in a snowstorm and it was such a pain in the ass. But I had to like, you know, trudge through the snow, get to the winery. And one time the power was out. I still had to like feed this yeast and tend it and make sure it was feeling good. There's a lot that that goes in. That's where I kind of, when building up these yeasts it's, you know, it's. It's past harvest, so it's usually in December or January. And I really love that ritual of. Such a newborn baby. It kind of is. And I gotta keep checking on it every couple. Yeah, you've gotta, like, and I love. You gotta sing to it. You gotta make sure it's nice and cozy. You. There's so much. That's the tending part of it. Even though we just tended to probably, I don't know, 65 ferments beforehand just a few months ago, it's fun to go back into it and in this, like, kind of more intimate and specialized way with these. These wines. I really love that part of it. It's cool. So we got. Yeah, we got a lot of the pipeline. There's four standards, and then sometimes we just throw in another one for Pen. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Okay. All right. So we are coming towards the end. I don't want to hold you guys too much, but I have the last question. Well, they're like, last group of questions. I call them my speed round. And it doesn't mean that I expect you to, like, come up with it, like, super, super fast. So we're going to just go through the super fast. The idea is first thing that comes to mind, because otherwise these questions could take forever. So it's kind of just like first thing that comes to mind. That's the sweet part of it. All right, so I have a few of them. So the first one is, what is your favorite wine at the moment? Who? Who? First I'll say a cava, dry kavas. I've been drinking a ton of white wine. One of my favorites is To Go. It's anything white. White and Greek, man. They're just like, my favorite. I've cried so many times over Circumflex, like, literally cried tears of. Of beauty. It's great. So good. Love both those answers. Okay, how about your go to bottle of wine to bring to, like, a. Dinner party or share with friends? It's probably gonna be sparkling. It's probably going to be from the Columbia Gorge. There's a lot of really beautiful sparklings coming from the Columbia Gorge. If I was going to my bestie's house and they're vegan, and so that's one of the things I look for, is, like, make sure that the wine is actually vegan. I would probably do one of, like, Dumein Pouillon's pet naps. I love that wine. And it's just, like, kind of my go To. I love Domain Pouillan. I love those guys. And I always reach for a bottle for it, so. Probably do that. I would probably. It depends on what. What they're serving. Yeah. Like, a bubble would be great if I had access to them. Or. Or a really decent red blend, depending on. I'm really into, like, really bright, crisp, like Barberas right now. You know, it depends just your mood's just. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's very much a different of, like, what am I into right now and what do I want to share with a friend? Yeah. Really matters to me. Like, what are you cooking? Are we inside? Are we outside? Yeah. I usually bring the weird bottles. And I'll bring a weird bottle. Honestly, same. Oh, my God. Yeah. One of my favorite wines. And I went on a thing where I was buying that and bringing it, and people thought it was too weird, so I stopped. I'm like, just the thing is, it means more for me that I get to drink. If everyone else is like, nah, that's too weird, then I get to drink it. Yeah. Okay. All right, the next question. What about. What is your favorite wine region that you've ever visited? We've done a bit of travel, but funnily enough, not a ton of our travel has been around wine. We've always chosen a place that definitely had a wine region, but we are too busy. We started this 2009, and we're a family winery. So, like, we go on vacations. We went to London because we want some culture. We're out kind of in the. Not middle of nowhere, but, you know, we. We need to see us. We need some city life sometimes. Yeah. And so a lot of the times when we're taking our travel or, like, family travel destinations, it's a place that's, like, good. And we know has a good. Like, I went to Noble Rot, Right. I'm in London, so I'm gonna go to Noble Rot. But we also were in Italy for a month last year, and that was amazing. Yeah. So what we. What we do is. Well, I mean, I think Chianti is probably my favorite, but one of the things that is remarkable is we'll go and we try to spend one or two nights when we're there and buy as much as we can possibly buy and then do a sit down and I don't know. Am I allowed to say this? But it's just disappointing sometimes because you're like, what? Like, how are they selling these bottles for so much? And they're not great. But what the one, like, vernaccia like, the white wines, the Italian white wines are gorgeous. I think that's my sense of. And also, like, I think, what's the region where in Cava is made? What's that? It's. It's in. What's it called? The pea. Penades. No, Penades. Yeah. Is it? Yeah, yeah, I think it is. So those wines. Yeah, we've traveled there. Yes. Okay. All right. So now the flip side might be a little bit easier for you to answer. Maybe. What about a wine region you'd like to visit that you haven't been to? I want to go to Germany and Austria. We make a ton of Rieslings, and the Vat Gao is my favorite region to drink from, but I've never been there, and I want to go so bad. I want to drink all the Smarag wine and all of the steinfetters with that, like, cheesy crock pot, like, onion dish they do with it. I want that. I just want to do that all day. I also want to see those vines. It's one of the most, I mean, impressive viticultural areas I've seen. Just like height, wise, elevation, like, mechanics of. Of how they're making wine of that quality. I mean, we know why, because the region itself. But, like, that's steep as hell. I mean, that's like. It's so fascinating to see these different wine regions. So I think back, I was definitely on my list for sure. How about you? The south of French, the igp. Just because I'm so fucking tired of the snobbery around specific regions when some of the best wines are made in a non traditional sort of maverick way. And I love those wines. I mean, some of the best wines I've ever had were not at Chateau Pop. They were an igp. And yeah, totally know we all or something. And they were just delicious. Beautiful blend or something different because it wasn't so restricted. They can do so much more and. They grow the creativity down there. Yeah, they can be more creative. I really appreciate that. Winemaking is an art, and I do get bored. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I feel like a region where there's like a lot of different stuff. I did go to Burgundy last fall, and I mean, amazing, traditional, like, that's the kind of wine I fell in love with. But. Right. They make like a couple different styles of wine. Right. And so then on the flip side, I'm like, ready after something like that to go somewhere where there's a variety of wine of lots of different things. Being done. I love it. Like, when we were at Provine a couple of years back, I mean, I went to places where wine regions I first nipped, didn't know they had, and like Azerbaijan. And like, oh, yeah, the Georgian. The Georgian fruit was amazing. Some Greek. Turkish wines too. So cool. I understand the parameters, and I understand the art form. And while I appreciate that you kind of get. You just want to try new things and do. Do different things and really appreciate that. I mean, wine, to me, is like having a. A palette full of. Of paint or some tubes, and then what you make out of it is the art. Right. It's not region or variety specific necessarily. There's an aspect of pushing the limit. So I think there are gatekeepers in that idea that there should be a tradition involved. And I appreciate. While I appreciate the tradition, I also think we can push those fastest. As we talked about earlier with representation. There are some things need to change. And the shoulds, I guess the tyranny of the shoulds should no longer have. A place in the one thing that my mom said to us constantly growing up, and we say it constantly in the vineyard and in the winery is do not genuflect to the tyranny of the should. And it's like, it's. It resonates so much in so many different ways, but, yeah, just a little tidbit. Little Rachel wisdom right there. Well, it's just a revolutionary thing. Yes. Yes. No, I love it. It's such a good way to think about it. All right, we're gonna end on one last speed round question. And again, this one will probably be hard based on what I've already talked to you guys about, but what is your favorite at the moment? Again, it doesn't have to be, like, of all time favorite wine and food. Pairing or like a go to wine and food pairing. Okay. We're all ladies here, and everyone watching will just have to get used to women talking about this more. But when I am ovulating, a bribe, and my. My hormones are screaming for ruffles and potato chips. Sorry, but it would be, like, ruffles of potato chips and, like, a really simple bubble. That's like, my favorite pairing. And it's usually because I have the bowl of chips on my belly, then the dip also on my belly, and I'm laying. I'm like a horizontal, you know. Yeah, yeah. Situation. But then, like, on a more serious note, some of my favorite things to drink are tokai. I love tokai. I don't get it that often. I drink A lot of dry ferment. But Tokai specifically, like a really dank cheese board with maybe too much Tokai is probably one of my most like, hedonist, indulgent love affairs with wine. Yeah, I love it. I love it. All right, I'm gonna go traditional and say like a really non sagniered. So a. Like a bad doll or something. A vandal style. Yeah, like a more van rose. So I was gonna say the potato chip one because I'm a potato chip girl. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that's a big pairing at our house is like salty snacks and bubbles. That's a constant in your house and our house. Yeah, we do salty snacks and bubbles. We're like salty bubbly people. Yeah, like that's just a good way to describe us in general. Just salty bubbly. Salty bubbly people. Yeah, that's a good way. There's no health benefits to that. That's a tomorrow problem. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, well, thank you ladies so much for Jo for this wonderful podcast. I had a wonderful conversation. Well, good luck with the rest of the wine and all the sparkling fun that you have coming up and I look forward to coming to visit sometime. Definitely going to make my way to Columbia Gorge. Love to host you whenever you're down. Love to show you around, show these vineyards all the things. Yes, absolutely. All right, well, have a good fourth of July weekend and yeah, we'll stay in touch. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Cheers. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. Be sure to go check out Aniche Sellers wine on their website onichesellars.com I will put it in the show notes as well. If you'd like to try any of the wine and buy some wine, you can use promo code corkandfizz, all one word and is spelled out cork and Fizz to get 30% off your purchase of the wines. If you're ever in the Columbia Gorge area in Washington State, be sure to give their tasting room a visit and be sure to follow them on social media Nietzsche sellers to find out more about the wine that they make. If you love this episode as much as I did, I would so appreciate it. Just take a quick second. If you haven't done this yet, just rate it and leave a review. It lets me know what you're enjoying about the episode and that it's reaching a lot of people that are enjoying it. In next week's episode, we're going to do a deep dive into wines. Key components. That's acidity, tannin and body. We're going to talk more about those. Where do they come from? What do they mean? How do we decipher them? In wine tasting, all of that fun stuff. So can't wait for that. Thanks again for listening to this episode. If you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at Cork and Fizz on Instagram. And if you're interested in exploring new wines and joining an incredible community of wine lovers, be sure to sign up for my version. Virtual tasting club, the Court crew. Head to thecourtcrew.com that's the courtcrew.com to learn more and use code wine special all one word to get your first two months for just$8 a month. Cheers.