How Generations Discover Wine & the Future of Wine w/ Erik Segelbaum (Part 1)

Ep 110

Why do millennials and Gen Z approach wine so differently from previous generations and what does that mean for the future of wine? 

And what does it really take to go from line cook to award-winning sommelier and industry leader?

Today’s guest, Erik Segelbaum, is an Advanced Sommelier with the Court of Master Sommeliers, Food & Wine Magazine 2019 Sommelier of the Year, and 2020 Wine Enthusiast 40 under 40 Tastemaker with over 3 decades of industry experience. Erik is the founder of GoodSomm–a luxury lifestyle wine club, is the co-owner of Amalfi Beverage Company–luxury RTD cocktails, and SWIG Partners–an import and distribution facilitation agency. Plus, he has been Smithsonian’s national wine educator since 2019, hosting monthly consumer classes!

Erik pulls back the curtain on what it really means to be a sommelier in today’s world and candidly shares the realities beyond the glamour, from managing wine lists and training staff to accounting and clogged toilets.

Erik shares his thoughts on the generational differences between millennials and Gen Z in wine consumption and drinking habits. We talk about why these groups are adventurous yet disloyal to brands, and how their priorities, such as sustainability and social ethos, differ from the boomer generation. And, we dig into how the psychology of social media has shaped younger generations' approach to wine, often placing values and image above just the taste itself.

So, if you are ready to dive into the ever-evolving tastes of today’s wine drinkers, then this episode is for you.

Thank you to VoChill for sponsoring this episode. Go to Vochill.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 15% off your order!

Connect with Erik

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erik4wine

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/goodsomm/

Website: https://www.thesomlyay.com

Website: https://goodsomm.com/

Skip the waitlist and join GoodSomm: https://goodsomm.com/secret/

Episode Highlights:

• Erik’s journey from chef to Sommelier
• Realities of working as a Sommelier
• Wine consumer psychology by generation
• How different generations select, app

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Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bolman and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I am so excited to introduce you today to Eric Siegelbaum. Eric is an advanced sommelier with the Court of Master Sommeliers, the Food and Wine Magazine 2019 Sommelier of the Year and 2020 Wine Enthusiast 40 under 40 tastemaker who has over 30 years of experience in the fine dining industry. He is known for creating and running highly profitable, award winning beverage programs and is a highly engaging educator. His experience includes corporate beverage director for Star Restaurants, head Sommelier of the world which is a luxury yacht, not just the world and he was also corporate wine director of Schwartz Brothers restaurants in Seattle and beyond that I know there's more. He's also the founder of Good Somm, a luxury lifestyle wine club which we're going to talk about more during the podcast. The founder of Somal Yay. Which is such a fun play on words. It's S o m L Y a y like Yay at the end. It's a hospitality agency and consulting firm. He's also co owner of Amalfi Beverage Company which is creating really delicious cocktails in a can. We'll talk about that more. Editor and journalist for many consumer and trade publications including Food and Wine magazine, and vice president of the United Sommeliers Foundation, a charity that provides financial assistance to wine professionals in critical need. And that's not even all of it, but like we don't have time to go through everything. And if you're wondering, Haley, how the heck did you manage to convince someone as amazing as Eric to join you on the show? I don't know you. You'll have to ask him. But honestly, I think it comes down to wine people loving to talk about wine and love having a platform to teach people about wine as well. I actually met Eric at a seminar During Taste Washington earlier this year, he was one of the folks on the panel that was talking about how incredible Washington white wine has become as of lately. And I just really enjoyed. He had such unique and interesting insights and was clearly incredibly knowledgeable, not just about wine itself, but about the business surrounding it and the psychology of the consumers purchasing it. So I went up to him after the seminar and said, hey, I have a podcast. Want to join me on it? He said, yes. So that. That. That's how we got this to happen in the first part of this interview. So in this episode, you will discover how Eric went from working as a line cook as a teenager to the highly successful sommelier that he is today. His advice for folks interested in becoming sommeliers and how they should approach their careers, and what I think is the most exciting part. It is at the end. You'll have to stick around. But it's the psychology behind how different generations approach wine. Basically answering questions like, why do baby boomers tend to stick to the same kind of wine all the time? And are millennials and Gen Z drinkers just not interested in wine? And if so, is the wine world in danger due to these younger generations not drinking as much? You're gonna love this. I think it's just. I. My mind was blown. I learned so much. Anyway, the interview's long enough. I need to stop talking. So without further ado, let's get into that interview. Let's just. Let's dive in then. So can you tell us who you are and what you do? Well, my name is Eric Segelbaum. I'm an advanced sommelier. What I do would probably be its own whole podcast on its own. But as succinctly as I can say it, I have a luxury lifestyle wine club called Goodson that is the product of my 24 years as a sommelier, plus 10 years as a chef before that. Kind of wanting to create something for the world of wine that's based on everything I love about wine, which is experience, discovery, community, and lifestyle. I am the vice president of the United Somalia Foundation. We are a charity that formed in March of 2020 because of COVID when we were fighting our entire community, which is very closely knit, making decisions, you know, being laid off furloughed indefinitely, making decisions. Decisions like, do I feed myself dinner tonight or get my children medicine, but I can't afford to do both. So we, to date have raised nearly two million dollars, given out over five and a half thousand emergency financial assistance grants. So now that Covid is not the thing that it was the LA wildfires, the Maui wildfires, Hurricanes Milton and Helene, whatever whatever it is, medical issues. Any wine professional that is in critical financial need through no fault of their own, we we have financial resources for them. I own consulting company called Sommelier S O M L Y A Y Sommelier in that I am Smithsonian's national wine educator. So I teach a monthly digital class in tasting since 2019. Every month I write for most of the major consumer and trade food and wine publications including Food and Wine Magazine, Wine Spectator, Wine

Enthusiast, Psalm journal, tasting panel, 7: 5:36

50 daily and a whole bunch more. I do private events all over the country and all over the world do private wine cellar acquisitions, liquidations, valuations, insurance, vetting, legacy seller planning, high net worth process and and family planning for regarding wine and investing. I have a company called SWIG Partners that is strategic wholesale import growth partners. We are beverage alcohol yenta. We help alcoholic brands across all categories, domestic and foreign. Find importers if they're foreign and or distributors in any and all 50 states. I am launching Certo, which is an Italian I told you it's going to be a lot. I was like, I'm like, okay, we're going to do like no, I got something else for you. I am very excited. My, my newest project is the Amalfi Beverage Company and our brand is called Certo. We are RTD's are ready to Dr. Cocktails made in Italy on the Amalfi coast. Only natural ingredients, no preservatives added or garbage. We are starting with Negronis and espresso martinis, but at full strength, not sweet, properly ratioed. The kind of thing that if you spent$22 in a luxury cocktail bar you'd be like, yes, this is perfect. They just happen to be in a single serve can. We are targeting what I call captive luxury. So lounges, airlines, private clubs, golf courses, stadiums, venues, arenas, luxury hotels. So when you, you know, when you get into the lounge in the airport, it's there. When you get on the plane, it's there. When you check into the Ritz Carlton, the Fairmont, the Montage, the Four Seasons, it's in your mini bar. When you go to the club, you can get a the beach club or the club club, you get a bucket of espresso martinis. When you're out on your yacht, when you're on the golf course, whatever. The idea is format does not dictate quality and everything in a can is garbage. So we decided what if we make the best thing possible that happened to Be in a can. So Cherito, we just got our colas, so we're about 10 weeks out from being live and available in all 50 states. There's more, but we can stop there. I do a lot. Oh, you know what? One more that is really important. I'm an active member of the United States Wine Trade Alliance. We formed in also in March of 20, actually in 2019. We formed because of tariffs on alcohol. And we are a lobbying agency that works with all levels of government, Congresspeople, senators, and the U.S. trade Representative to help them understand that tariffs on foreign and imported alcohol only hurt domestic American brands. I mean, the first round of terrorists did over $250 of domestic economic damage to, to largely American small businesses. So highly involved in, in that too. And there's like a dozen other things, but I think that's enough. Yeah, you do, you do like a few things in wine, right? Just like, just a couple things. You're there. Yeah. Wine cocktails, alcohol related. No, I, I love it and I, I think it's good to be. We have such a great episode today. I feel like I got to have some fun with these questions because I met you at that, what was it? The panel at Taste Washington. And I feel like what you talked about there, I was like, yes, this is somebody that I need on the podcast because I love your take on things and you have so much experience in so many places. And we're definitely going to talk about the tariffs later. But first, I feel like it's kind of fun to hear where you are now, but the question is, how did you get into wine? So it sounds like you actually were in fine dining for a while, but not always in wine. So what was it that kind of like turned you to wine? Sure. Well, I was a chef and chefs drink a lot. And while I say that jokingly, it's also very true. I started, I got my first restaurant job as a cook at 13 weekends and summer holidays and I fell in love. It was take your kids to work day. My mom's a teacher. Love. My mom did not want to go to her elementary school. Instead I went to a local Italian trattoria where we were regulars and I was already into cooking and I asked if I could stage and I spent that day peeling garlic and making pizza dough and julienning sun dried tomatoes. And I was like, I want more of this. So I was in kitchens for 10 years. I was at the time drinking for the alcohol. And as I honed my culinary craft, I got into more and more Fine dining. In the last six or so years, I was in fine dining. And in my last few years, I was the restaurant chef of a tasting menu, fine dining French restaurant at the. At the time, it was the Park Hyatt at the Bellevue in Philadelphia. And of course, as you can imagine, a fine dining, tasty mini restaurant, French, like classic French restaurant wine goes hand in hand. So the sommelier and I used to work together and, you know, he. He's the first person that not only got me excited about wine, you know, as my palate developed, I stopped drinking for alcohol and started drinking for flavor. But he also sort of helped me understand a little bit unintentionally, the economics of it. So because what I'm most known for now is sort of the business of beverage and the wine industry. So he would say, hey, I've got three bottles left of this wine. Can we taste it? And can I. Can you build a dish around it so I can use it on a tasting menu? Because I want to, like, use up the product, which, you know, got me thinking about wine and food in a whole different way. But also being able to taste a wine, talk through it, and then build a dish to the flavors is usually, usually some ways we reverse engineer. A chef gives us a menu. Usually the main flavor that we think is going to be is a minor flavor. And there's all these things we didn't know that were going to be there and like, figure out appearing. So it was really cool to do that. I fell in love with it. That is the sexy part of the answer, the unsexy part of the answer is at the time. And this was the early 2000, like 2002. I was coming in three, four hours before the service staff off the clock because there was no labor budget for me. But if I wasn't in that early, then we weren't ready for service. Doing mise en place. I was staying three or four hours after the service staff left. They're all in the bar having their third round. And meanwhile, I'm still finishing up and closing down the kitchen and doing orders for the next day. And I was making about one fourth what they were making. I put myself through school. I graduated from university with crippling student loan debt. I was making 16 an hour running. One of the most awarded fine dining French restaurants in Philadelphia in the early 2000s. And I was broke. I mean, I remember selling CDs and DVDs to be able to make rent. That's how old I am because I use CDs and DVD. And it was Hyatt was opening up a luxury boutique property in south beach. And 20, however old I was, two year old me was like, okay, you can transfer down to Miami. Leave Philadelphia. Yeah, I'm gonna do that. But they had a concept chef to this whole culinary team. They said, there's nothing for you in back of house. You wouldn't wanna be a prep cook, but do you wanna be a server? I was like, yes, absolutely, I will 100%. I see how much money they make. I need the money. Yes, I'll do it. While that hotel reopening was in progress, because, you know, every restaurant and hotel opens exactly on time with no delays. We were delayed. And the court of master sommeliers was doing an intro exam in Florida. And they said, hey, anybody who wants to take this, if you pass, we will reimburse your tuition. I'm like, I'm gonna do this. I already love wine. I already see how wine and food go hand in hand. I already see how wine knowledge would make me a better server. So I took it. I got. I think I got the top score, but I certainly got a high score. The hotel opened. It was very clear the more I knew about wine, the more money I made. And then within about four months of the properties opening, the wine director quit, the head sommelier was fired, and they said, eric, you're running the show. It was a fine dining luxury restaurant in South Beach. The whole hotel in room, dining, events, everything that we had, like a lounge turn club situation. And a week after they told me I was running everything with no training, no experience and no instruction, they said, by the way, in three weeks is south beach food and wine. We're the host hotel. You're doing a dinner with Marcus Samuelson. Don't screw up the pairings. Oh, my Gosh, that was 22 years ago. And I have not turned back. And I love every minute. Even the stuff I hate. I love this. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's crazy. I love how much of it was just like. Like you said, there was like a. Your. The romantic side of it of like your love for wine and learning into that. But then so much of it was just happenstance of like, yeah, I want to move down to Miami. Yeah, I want to make more money. Okay. All the people above me were. Are gone now. I guess I'm the next person. Person. We're gonna make it happen. Let's do it. Yeah. A good balance of necessity, circumstance, and I can't ignore opportunity. I have been privileged and blessed that some of these opportunities have come my way, and I recognize that. But, yeah, a victim of fortune, I suppose. And also, again, necessity, because you would have asked me in 2000 what my career trajectory looks like in 2025. I'll be like, I'll own five restaurants and I'll have one Top Chef and all this other stuff. And like, being a psalm wasn't even in my mind. And now I can't fathom an existence without doing what I do. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Just a quick reminder. If you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to corkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show. Okay, so this is probably the hardest question on my list of things that I want to ask you about, but I think it's helpful for folks that are just listening and understanding where. How did you get from those first days at the hotel, you know, working as a som to where you are now? Can you give, like, just a basic kind of spark, notes of how you went from, you know, serving on the floor at the hotel to now creating these businesses and like you said, being on more of the business side of wine? Sure. The early years was trial and error and trial by fire. I mean, I. I knew nothing. In fact, when I became a journalist, one of the first articles I wrote, it was a letter to myself as an intro song. It's like dear Eric here and dear every other newly intro pinned psalm. Here are all the things you're doing wrong that you don't even realize. I thought I was like, that's about right. When the Saw movies came out, it was the idea of, like a rock star psalm. I didn't know what I was doing. I thought I knew everything. I had a ton of purchasing power, so everybody was banging down my door to take me to concerts and out on yachts and out to the best restaurants so could get placements in my program, and I didn't know anything. But. So there's a lot of trial. Trial and error in the early years. But because I had no training and no mentorship whatsoever, I mean, the program I inherited was arguably one of the most disorganized Things I've ever seen. There was no order guide. There was no. The inventory sheet didn't have vintages. The. None of the accounting was accurate, and I didn't know what I was doing. So I had to kind of, you know, learn how to drive stick on a hill. I just had to figure it out. At the time that sucked. But it was honestly the best, best thing for me because it forced me to get really good at finance and operations and to develop really efficient practices and systems, which I've taken with me through my whole career and I now freely share as a mentor to anyone who wants to know this stuff. So I left Miami after many years. Miami isn't my favorite place. You know, it's great to be young, wealthy, and beautiful, but the party, like, gets caught up. I was. I was definitely young. Of those three things, I don't know if I can say the other two Ended up moving to Seattle, took a job with a. For Washington state you'd considered a fine dining restaurant group called Schwartz brothers was running originally one of their steakhouses, and they had a number of them. And I realized, hey, there's nobody overseeing the wine program from a corporate standpoint, and that doesn't make any sense. So I basically wrote my own job description and pitched why they need a corporate wine director and why it should be me brought that into existence, and then was running the whole restaurant group and then got a random call from a recruiter for something called the world, which is the world's largest ultra luxury private residential yacht. It's the size of a 2,000 passenger cruise ship. And in that same footprint, there's, I think, 137 apartments, all of which are privately owned. More billionaires and millionaires. Like, hey, come be the sommelier for the world. I was like, thanks. I'm an executive with this restaurant group. I'm not looking to switch, but let's talk about it, because I know a lot of psalms and I might be able to find someone for you. And then an hour and 20 minutes into that conversation, I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this. So I was. My Official title in 2012 was Head Sommelier of the world, which is really cool. That's fun to have on your resume. Just no notes. Just Head sommelier of the world. Yeah, the World. It was a wildly amazing experience. Some of the coolest stuff I can imagine. Places I never thought I went, places that I'd only ever seen in, like, National Geographic. Following that, came back and then joined star restaurants who I had worked for As a food runner in Philly in college and then rejoined as as a sommel and beverage manager for a diplomat that had just opened in D.C. star restaurants is a massive organization and they also did not have a corporate wine director. So after about a year, I was like, look, you can't give me 34 restaurants. I'll flounder, but let me do regional. I was like, here's a regional plan for me to take on D.C. i think I started with D.C. and Miami, then we added New York and then the whole company. By the time I left Star restaurants, I was running a $100 million beverage program at the time, 43 restaurants in seven cities. I opened Le Cucu, which was Michelin star James Beard, best new restaurant in the country. But I was also running like El Rey, which is like casual, street, Mexican and everything in between. That is what put me in a position to be able to eventually become independent. So for anyone who's listening and is like, oh, yeah, I really want to go independent. That was after more than that was over a decade and a half in this industry before I felt that I had enough experience and more importantly, value to offer this industry. You know, I've interviewed hundreds of aspiring sommeliers. Newly pinned sommeliers are new to the career sommeliers. And I don't ask, you know, where do you see yourself in five years? I think that's an absolute BS question, Because any year of my life, if you would have asked me, where do you see yourself in two years? The answer I would have given you with absolute certainty would not align with where I was two years from there. But the question I do ask a lot is, what is your ideal career trajectory? What's your path? Where do you want to see yourself going as a sommelier? And I can't tell you how many people will be like, oh yeah, you know, so within two years I want to be running my own program and in four years I want to be a consultant. In the back of my head, I'm like, what could you possibly offer this industry after four years in one job? Like, no offense, but like, no. So I only became independent after, let's see, I became a Sam in, oh, four. I started started Sommelier, my first of now five companies in 2019. So 15 full years and also running high level beverage programs before I felt like I had enough to offer the world that I could go independent and also be able to, you know, pay my mortgage and put food on my table and have reliable business. So that is a not so short Cliff Notes of the trajectory that. That put me where I am. Yeah, no, I mean. I mean, I asked you to like cliff notes, like 20 plus years, so I'd say that was pretty darn good. I also think it's really fascinating just hearing about. I think when I think of a sommelier, a lot of times I tend to think of like the person who's on the floor serving wine. Right. And I think a lot of folks listening probably think of that as well. Versus, like a lot of your career was actually, it sounds like. Were you also working the floor when you were being the director of wine for these places or was it just on the backside? Oh, yeah. No, no, no. It was both. So the idea of the devoted sommelier has basically evaporated in the last 20 years. Outside of three star Michelin restaurants and very few exceptions, the idea of a SOM manager is. That's what it is when you are working as a psalm. Unless you're hourly, if you are salaried and you have benefits, you are a manager. You're opening, you're closing, you're writing schedules. I mean, for LA Diplomat now. La Diplomat at the time, now it's like 23, 24, maybe 25 million a year restaurant. It's one of the highest independent grocery restaurants in the country. At the time we were doing like 16 to 18 million. It was still one of the highest independent grossing restaurants. I was running a, I don't know, five and a half million beverage program while still also being responsible for hiring and writing the schedule for the baristas and the food runners, while still also be responsible for openings, for closing, for working brunch service. The amount of times I went to a table and asked if their eggs were cooked perfectly for them, versus. May I offer you assistance with your wine selection? This evening we're about even. I was doing accounting, you know, financial close facilities, closes. I was responsible for ordering coffee and tea, china, glass and silver. So yeah, no, my whole career. And same thing with Schwartz brothers. When I was working service in the steakhouse, running the restaurants, writing schedules, dealing with all of that. If you're listening and you're an aspiring psalm and you're like, I love wine, I want to study wine, learn about wine, talk about wine and sell wine and go home every night, that job doesn't exist. Let's just be real. There is so much more to it in that. What I like to say is being a psalmist, the I love wine. You know, I study wine, I talk about wine, I sell wine. That's what you get to do after everything else from a management and operations side of things is in place. That's what you get to do if you're not running reef fires, if you're not dealing with an overflow and being 35 minutes behind on reservation at the door and your six top increased to an eight and it's not turning and you've got an eight top celebrating the most important thing of their life. That's 40 minutes behind and the girl is throwing a fit because her birthday is ruined. You know, like, when you're not dealing with all that stuff. Not dealing with, dude, the amount of clogged toilets I've had to deal with in my life. When you're done doing everything operationally and financially, that's when you get the fun of. Hi, friends, let's talk about wine tonight. But that's the glamour side of it. But it's the non glamorous side that you really have to get good at. Yeah, I think that's so important for people to realize because I think I've always thought of it as like, whenever, you know, when I do get to see a sommelier at a restaurant or something like that, I'm always just like, I feel like I, I shouldn't even have the honor of you being here because the amount of work that you've put into, like getting to the position that you are, and now you are like lending me your expertise and everything that, you know, that has led you to now. And I get to take advantage of that to find a great bottle of wine. It is just so cool that we get to do that. And then on the flip side, it's also the, like, when I got into wine, everybody always asks, like, oh, do you want to be a sommelier? And I'm like, in the sense of like a sommelier that works in the restaurant industry or in that. I don't think I could ever do it. I just, I could not do what you are saying. And I know that that's so much of what you have to do. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I'd be happy to fly in a private jet. That doesn't make me want to be a pilot. Yeah, exactly. And you. Thank you for the compliment to the industry. I'm going to, I'm going to say something that might be a little triggering for some of you listening what you described, Hayley, is most sommeliers and what sommelier should be. In the age of social media, there are a lot of people whose wine knowledge comes from what their Friends are posting about and they passed an intro exam and then they think they're som gods. The litmus test for is a sommelier good? Is when you ask them for a wine recommendation, they ask you questions about what you like. If you ask a psalm, hey, what do you recommend? Look, the reality is, if they wrote the list, the whole list is recommendations. That's why everything on the list makes sense for what it is and for that style and that price. So whenever you ask a song like what do you recommend? They just start rattling off their favorite weird esoteric things. To me, that's the sign that they are not a good psalm. Because a psalm is is hospitality. And hospitality is being there for your guests, not your guests being there for you. It's about reading the room. It's about not two hour long lectures. Yes, you've acquired all this knowledge. The thing about it is to hold it back and have it if you need it. I think about like psalm knowledge as like bear spray. I live in Colorado, so I go on walks, okay? If I'm going on a hike in the mountains, I'm going to carry bed mace with me. Not because I ever intend to use it, but if there is the one random situation where it's called for, I'm prepared. That's what psalm knowledge should be. So anytime you ask a psalm and they're like, oh, they just start recommending. They're missing the boat of what their true job is, which is to ask you questions about what you like and then make the recommendations for you when the perennial example of that is, okay, guest wants a. Well, my favorite are like Lopez de Heredia, which the current Release is what, 2013 or 14? That style of is not the style of that most people want when they want a rose. So if I just say, yeah, get this $170 bottle of a, it's probably way over their price point. B, it's probably a flavor profile they don't like. So what have I done? I've made them feel uncomfortable, made them feel awkward, maybe inadvertently force them into a transaction that they're not happy about, and then they leave with experience. So for all of you aspiring psalms, your wine program is not a record collection of your favorite hits. It is a perfectly mastered soundtrack to the operation, and you're choosing the right song for the right moment for your guests. Oh, I love that. I think that's such a great way to put it. I feel like it kind of brings us to the next question, which, like, this is one that I've been very much looking forward to talking to you about here on the podcast. I love producing this podcast for you every week, but here's the truth. It's not free. That's why I'm so grateful for sponsors like Vochill, a brand I truly love and use myself. Nothing ruins a perfect afternoon out on the sunny patio like a glass of warm wine. And while ice might seem like the only option, it just waters your wine down. That's where Vochil comes in. Vocill is one of my favorite wine gadgets, and I'm super picky when it comes to gadgets. It keeps your wine perfectly chilled in your own glass. No clunky metal tumblers, no ice cubes, just beautifully chilled wine, sip after sip. I don't drink wine in the summer without mine, and I've gotten all of my family and friends hooked as well. My mom used hers so much last year that one of her friends ended up getting one of her own as a Christmas gift. Bochil comes in stemmed and stemless styles and tons of colors, perfect for gifting or treating yourself. Head to vocill.com that's V O C H I L L.com and use code corkandfizz for 15% off your order. And that's like thinking about the wine consumer, right? Because, like, like you said, like, as a sommelier, you have, like, all this experience, all this knowledge and all these wines that you love. But that's not a lot of the time, what you're talking about, when you're, when you're talking to, to tables, when you're, you know, building a wine program, like, you're thinking about what are people buying, what are interested in. And I feel like lately there's been a lot of conversation about how Gen Z, millennials, they don't drink wine. They don't. They don't care about wine. Or we're dropping at, you know, wine sales are dropping, and then comparing it to, you know, the boomer generation or the Gen X. And I feel like you had some really interesting notes about this from the panel, so I wanted to bring them to the podcast here. And I just want you to kind of maybe just. Let's start with just like a little intro of, like, do you see differences in the generations as consumers and how they approach the wine world? 100%. There are differences, I think, for the millennials and Gen Z and I don't know, are, are the eldest alphas old enough to start drinking now? I don't actually. Gosh, I, I don't think so. Cause I don't think all the Gen Z can drink yet. So for the O, for, for the millennials and, and the drinking age, Gen Zs, I want to give you a call out that you guys get picked on a lot. And a lot of people claim to know what you all like without actually asking you what you like right now. So that's a preference to say. I'm going to talk about your generational cohorts in broad generalizations. And this is based on not only empirical evidence of my, you know, 34 years doing this and largely in restaurants, but also I worked very closely with Erica Ducey, who used to be the executive editor of VinePair. She now has an amazing podcast called the Business of Drinks. But through Business of Drinks, she actually commissioned a year plus long study where they surveyed like 40,000 millennials and Gen Z's through a professional organization about beverage alcohol drinking trends. We lectured on that at Somcon, which is a trade conference last year. So what I'm going to tell you is, might not apply to every single person listening, but from, from broad generalizations is accurate. We started with boomers. Boomers and their, and their parents, which are, they call themselves the best generation, which that's a very strong statement to make. But I guess if you've survived two world wars, you get to call yourself the greatest generation. Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah. Those two generations, because they are the product of war, they are the product of uncertainty and unfamiliarity. Whether that's from birth if you're boomers, or whether that is not from birth if you're late boomers, but, but passed down from the inherited trauma of your parents generation that lived through one or two world wars because like, you know, my, my parents are, were born in London, both of them, because their respective parents fled the Nazis in Germany and Austria. Right. So major generational trauma and still born into a war. So for them, where they remember sugar rations and bread lines and little, little tokens, little red tokens to allow you to get a food ration, for them that inconsistency means that they are wired psychologically. I do a lot of study of the psychology of how people drink, the psychology of how people transact. Those generations are psychologically wired for familiarity, consistency and comfort. Which is why for those that are working sommeliers, you all have that same boomer couple,

let's call them Marty and Ethel. They come in at 5: 29:10

30,

5:29. When your doors open at 5: 29:13

30 every Sunday, they must have that same banquet. Marty's got to get the prime rib and cut extra sour cream on his potato. Ethel's got to get the salmon well done, steamed broccoli. And they've got to have the same table on the same server and the same bottle of wine. And you probably know what that bottle of wine is. I'm not going to name it. And that is their every week or every other week or every month habit. They've got to have that consistency because that is wired into them, generationally speaking. Right? The way that millennials and great I'm sorry, Boomers and greatest generation transact with anything, especially wine, is this is my thing. This is the thing I drink. And that can be as granular as this specific brand, or it can be as broad as I only drink Napa cap or whatever it is. Right? This is their thing. It is very hard to get them to stray from that because straying from that is removing familiarity and increasing risk. And if you're the kind of sommelier, which thankfully is rare, that I spoke about moments ago, which is where it's all about you, not all about your guests, you are causing them to use money that again, there wasn't a lot of that going around when they were young and take a risk on something that if you don't do your job right, they're going to hate and feel really bad about and probably not vocalize that. Just end up paying and having a bad taste in the mouth. That's ultimately that. Gen X, my generation, we're basically in a relevant cohort, not because we don't matter as people, just because there isn't enough of us to really shift trends. But X leans a little bit more to the boomer side of habit than to the millennial side of openness. So let's talk about millennials and Gen Zs now. You are the social media generation. You grew up with social media that has changed the way you do everything, whether you realize it or not. And from. From a psychological standpoint, social media, whether you intend this to be that or not, is ultimately a brag board of your life, your accomplishments and your achievements. For better or for worse. Social media is designed, it's like psychologically designed to get you to want to show people what you're doing and that you're doing something that they're not. So from a psychological standpoint, millennials and Gen Z, at least the younger millennials that grew up in social media, they are programmed to be able to post the next most exciting thing. So for them, what is important is the exact lack of familiarity. Here's a grape I bet you've never heard of a country or region maybe you didn't know made wine. Hey, this producer is known for Pinot Noir. Did he know they made a game? Do you know what Gamay is? How cool is that? Have you ever heard of Oregon Gamma? Whatever it is, right? Because of that they're wildly adventurous, which is amazing for Somalia because the world is our oyster, we want it all. But they're also hyper disloyal, which is not a bad thing. If you're a som, that's great. But if you are a brand, they become incredibly difficult to market to because the thing that they're most excited about for your wine today, they can get that elsewhere, right? The last thing is the value system of boomers, Gen X and Greatest Generation is I want this to be well worth the money because their their values, whether they realize it or not, is based in money because they're the product of wars or the children of parents of wars. The value system of millennials, Gen Z and now Alpha, even though they're not necessarily drinking yet, is I care about a cause. Is this winery environmentally conscious? Are they sustainable? Do they donate to a charity? Are their workers well taken care of? Do they offer childcare services and healthcare for their workers? Are they good for the community? Are they giving back? You know, these are the things that matter. And I hate to say this and trigger alert millennials and Gen Z. I can tell you for a fact, through thousands, tens of thousands of of interactions as a Flor sommelier, even as a wine director, that the least important thing to a millennial or Gen Z is the taste of the wine. And what's most important is the ethos and everything else around it. And not to pick on natural wine because a wine being natural isn't good or bad. Terroir and winemaking is what makes a wine good or bad. That being said, the millennial fueled natural wine movement was people being convinced that I should like this thing I don't like because this is what nature wants. Nature says it should taste like this and if I don't like it, I'm anti nature. Therefore, as somebody who cares about the earth and the environment, I need to force myself to like this flawed, mousy, foxy Brett Adelmer captain filled oxidized garbage that's super expensive that somebody in a leather apron and a twisty old timey mustache told me I'm supposed to like. Cause that's what nature makes. Also, while I'm on this Soapbox. Nature doesn't make wine. Nature makes vinegar. Humans make wine. And I'm not against wine made naturally with as minimal intervention as possible, as much care for the earth as possible. Wine made naturally is almost always delicious. Natural wine, where it's like, let's take some grapes, do nothing with them in the vineyard, throw them in a vessel, hope that they ferment, and then not do anything to protect them from going bad. Oxidizing, refermenting, having bacteriological infection, having yeast issues. So that when you as a consumer buy a case, every bottle might taste different, and some might taste like absolute garbage, and some might taste just passively okay, and one might taste delicious. I think that's wildly irresponsible to do with people's money. My point is, though, the natural wine movement, as I get back off this tangent, there are plenty of wines made naturally I think are absolutely extraordinary. Lopez de Heredia is a really good example of that, since I already mentioned them. Right. There are so many great natural wines that I think are delicious. Marcel Lapierre, Jean Foyard. But the idea that generations of people have been tricked into thinking you're supposed to like this because it's what nature wants, that is the perfect example of how millennials and Gen Zs care about the ethos necessarily more than the taste. And I dare say that might be one of the catalysts for why those generational cohorts are drinking a little bit less. Because they've had a lot of experiments that didn't go so well. And it's like, I don't feel nervous ordering coffee at Starbucks. Whatever my drink is, that's my drink. Nobody's going to judge me for the extra shot, for the syrup, for my choice of milk. No Millennial or Gen Z feels nervous ordering a beer. You idiot. You ordered a double ipa. When all the cool kids are drinking Goza, that doesn't happen. But wine becomes very scary. And if you are making a scary decision, that's more expensive and you also don't like it, but you have to pretend you do so as not to lose social value amongst your friends, then that turns wine into an oppressive thing, not an enjoyable thing. And wine has alcohol, and alcohol is poison. If we're going to poison ourselves, let's enjoy doing it. And that is one of the root causes of why Gen Z's and millennials are moving away from the same kind of wine consumption as Gen X and Boomers. And also for Gen Z's and millennials, drinking less is a status symbol, not Drinking more. Also, weed was never a thing that was legal when we were young, and there weren't adaptogenic drinks, and there weren't CBD drinks and all these other things. So the choice options available to your. To those generations that want something to de. Stress them, to relax them, to wind down, that doesn't necessarily have to include the negative effects of alcohol, which is poison. Is there are hundreds of thousands of more products now than when I was a child, or child when I was a young drinker. And therefore, it stands to reason that I can have a CBD drink that gives me all of the benefits, has probiotics, has adaptogens. I drink it, it gives me what I want from a social situation, and the next day I feel better, not worse. Stands to reason that that's gonna be a choice that a lot of people make. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That was a lot. Sorry. No, that was amazing. I was fascinated the whole time, and I guarantee everybody listening was also very fascinated. There were so many things that I was just, like, blown away. Like, first of all, just thinking about the fact that, like, yeah, boomers like what they like, and it's not just because they're stubborn. I feel like that's what I've always had in my head for the longest time, like, there behind. And it's like a comfort factor of, like, knowing what you like versus. And it's so true. I think millennials and Gen Z see wine, like many other things, as a social thing. It's either something you're drinking with other people, or it's something you want to show off and be like, here's what I'm having. And I really think that's fascinating, your take on why they're maybe not drinking as much because they've had that bad experience of feeling like, you know, I need to choose this. And last time I chose that, that was not good. So I don't really want to do that again. I mean, I remember having conversation with someone where they're like, I was take. I invited them to a natural wine bar in Seattle, Molly's. Oh. I don't think she's open anymore as a wine bar, but she has a shop, Molly's Bottle Shop. All of her wines are wonderful. She focuses on natural wines, but natural wines that taste good, right? Like, not just natural wines that, like, say, we are natural. Drink this. And I took this friend there, and we were drinking the wine, and she was like, oh, this was not what I was expecting, you know, And I think she was expecting, like, kombucha Funky, weird wine. And it was like, oh, this is just wine. And it's like, yeah, it's just wine made naturally. I am definitely a proponent of not using a bunch of chemicals or not doing a bunch of add ins, but the winemaker still needs to do their job and make wine a hundred percent. 100%, yeah. And so I, I really, I think that like changed her mindset. But the fact is, I'm sure a lot of people don't get that opportunity or take that extra step to do that because it's easier. Like you said, now there's so many options and it's even a health thing. Like nobody wants to say they have wine every night, like that's a bad thing. And so it's like, oh, I, you know, check out this non alcoholic option. Or we're, you know, trying. And I'm nothing against not drinking if you choose to do that. But I think it, at least to me, I think it's had a major effect on the wine industry. Now I'm curious, do you think that this will like, continue moving forward and like the wine industry is in danger because of the younger generation drinking less or where do you kind of see this going? No, I do think it will continue to move forward. I do not think the wine industry is in danger. Because if there's one thing that we have based on thousands of years actually that's, that's being generous. Let's just look at the last few hundred years of wine consumption and wine styles is that it is cyclical. About every 10 to 25 years, what's in vogue changes. If you remember, you know, early 2000s, up until about 2012, 13, 14, it was high alcohol, high concentration, high extract, Robert Parker style wines. And as a perfect example, let's talk about a very specific winery that happens to be made naturally that I love called Clos Rougard. It's from loire Valley, it's 100% cabernet franc from Samoa Champigny. When I was like buying in 2012, Clo Rouge yard was like $32 a bottle and like went down to like 25 by the glass. Do you know how hard it is to get a bottle now? It's like $290 a bottle. I think like the entire city of New York gets 60 bottles. Like it's insane. Not because anything's changed about the wine, but because that style went from being that wine. It's very earthy, very weedy, very green in all the best ways. Like, I love that wine and it is by Every definition, a wine made naturally, not a natural wine because it's made very well, but it's like potting soil and like. And like dandelion greens and arugula and berries, and I freaking love it. Nothing has changed about that wine in terms of how it's made. Everything has changed about the demand curve. Same thing I mentioned. Lapierre and Foyard from Beaujolais. Part of the gang of four. Those wines became so popular, frankly, because of social media and psalms posting, like, look at this cool thing. And they went from being like a $20 bottle Beaujolais to rare and allocated, you know, so it's the cycle of drinking habits, the no and low. And leaning towards wines made more naturally is definitely on the down swing of the parabolic arc. Not at the bottom yet, but I would predict in the next five to 12 years, things are going to start to swing back up. Because when you're familiar with something, you're used to it all the time. Imagine if you had to go out to eat every night, and every night you went to a steakhouse. Eventually you'd be like, God, I, I, as much as I like steak, I just want to go and have some, like, fresh seafood, right? It's not because you dislike steak. It's because you've been exposed to it so much, it no longer carries the same appeal, and you want something new. Wine drinking trends are the exact same thing. So the doom and gloom scenarios of, oh, the wine industry is in danger. No. Wineries and importers and distributors and wine conglomerates and wine groups that are not doing things well, that are not making quality wines, that are taking shortcuts or that don't offer the correct value proposition. And to be clear, value prop doesn't mean inexpensive. It means no matter the price, it's worth it. They are in danger. I was just talking to an importer that is up 43% over last year, while the industry is down. I think it's 14% overall. Why? They import incredible wines that are great value propositions. They take care of their customers, which are buyers for restaurants, you know, on premise or for retail, off premise. And their business is booming even in a down economy, and they're largely European. So even with the threat of tariffs, so the industry is cyclical. One more thing that you sort of talked about that I want to say about this whole idea of natural wine, because I'm not picking on it. I can remember in the, you know, around 2015 or 16, going to a natural wine bar in New York, I won't name it. I tried nine different things, and there was not a single thing that was even remotely palatable because the ethos there was natural. Natural, natural, natural. So when you were talking about, like, consumers drinking, like, your friend thinking, like, oh, this was gonna be weird and funky, but it wasn't. That place was all, frankly, half rotten wines that were weird and disgusting because their ethos was natural, not good wine. Unlike Molly's, whose ethos is good wine, that. That is also natural. Natural by coincidence. Right. I think it's really, like, really important to understand that that word does not mean a wine is good or bad. Organic doesn't make a wine good or bad. Biodynamic doesn't make a wine good or bad. Kosher doesn't want make a wine good or bad. These are all. It's like, it's organic if you want it to be, but it's still a good wine or not. It's biodynamic if you want it to be, but it's still a good wine. It's kosher if you want it to be, but still good wine. So understand that these are things that are coincidental to production, not indicative of quality or not. But I will tell you, in the last decade, anytime I was involved in service and a guest asked for a natural wine, I had to ask a clarifying question. Explain what you mean. Do you want a wine made with the most minimal intervention, or do you want something that's weird and funky and unusual? And it was about a split of answers to that question. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that brings up another great point too, of just like the words we use to describe wine. I think a lot of times they're, you know, there's not like a one single definition for a lot of them. Right. Like, it's the same way when people ask, like, I want a dry wine. Okay, what do you mean by that? Do you mean you like that feeling of your, like, mouth feeling kind of dry and. Or do you not want any sugar in it? Right. Because as a person with wine knowledge, dry in my head means no sugar. That's it. Which is pretty much a significant amount of a list, right? On the. On the wine list. But to a lot of people, a dry wine means not a lot of fruit flavor or not, you know, it means something else. And I think that's something that again, in the wine world, if you feel dumb because you didn't know the true definition of something or you understood it as something else, that, to me, is also something that's Turning millennials and Gen Z away. Like, if you're gonna make me feel dumb, I'm not gonna do it a hundred percent. What you're speaking to. So at, at the root, and this is a great full circle moment for our earlier conversation, what you are speaking to is the real role of a sommelier. A sommelier, their job is to become fluent in wine so that you can translate English to wine and wine to English for your guests. And you gave the most a perfect example with dry. So I do this, this event that I call Select a Song. I, I do it for like high, you know, like luxury clients and stuff because it's a pretty expensive event to produce, but basically in the footprint of something larger. I just did one actually. I'm gonna, I'm gonna non humble brag for a minute. I just did something for a, this for a client in LA last week, but their office was at the top of the building that was used as Nakatomi Plaza in Die Hard. So I straight up did it in the Die Hard conference room from Nakatomi Plaza. That is cool. Super cool. Looking down on the Fox studios. Anyway, here's my point. The event I call SelectaSalm and I designed this to my knowledge. I'm the only person on the planet that does this. If you're listening and you steal my intellectual property, I'm coming after you. But it's called select the Somme. What I'll do is I'll have about 40 or 50 red wines and about 20 white wines. And if you want a glass of wine, you can go over to the bar and you can order a glass of wine and you can choose what you want. If you come up to me, I interview you, and your responses to my questions determine the wine that's being poured for you. So what I tell the guests is, you're choosing the wine, but I'm naming it. You cannot be like, let me get a glass of Cab. In fact, when I do select a Sam, I never have cab. I never have Pinot and I never have Chard. And if I have Sauvignon Blanc, it's like Bordeaux Blanc or like an oaked style of Sauvignon, not, not like New Zealand Sablon, because left to their own devices, those are the four wines that people order and people, oh, let me get a cab. And I say, well, I'm going to ask you some questions. If your answers describe Cabernet, you're going to get a glass of Cab. And if not, you're going to get exactly what you ordered. So when I'm giving my little spiel, the thing that I always have to say is, so I'm going to ask you questions in English, you're going to answer me in English. Don't use wine terms. None of the wines I have here are sweet. So when I'm talking about fruit, I'm talking about flavors, not sugars. So when I ask you if you want a wine where the dominant flavors are those of fruits or the dominant flavors are those of earth and everything but fruit, please do not misconstrue that with sweet and still. I say that and they're like, oh, I don't want sweet. I'm like, I'm not talking about sugar, I'm talking about flavor. That is probably the most misused word from those who speak English but don't speak wine. So yeah, as a wine professional, our job is to translate what our constituents or guests are saying into what that means from a wine standpoint. And you you nailed on the head with a clarifying question. When somebody says they do want a sweet wine, I have to ask, do you want tangible residual sugar or do you want something that's rich and ripe and fruity? Because those are very different things. So you nailed it. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. Be sure to go follow Eric on Instagram. You can find him at eric eric number four wine at eric4wine and check out his wine club, Good Psalm, which you have exclusive access to. Skip the waitlist by going to goodson.com secret if you love this episode as much as I did, I'd love it if you could take a quick second to rate it and leave a review. And of course, if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them. In next week's episode, you will hear part two of my interview with Eric where we talk about wine tariffs. What are they and why are they hurting the American wine industry? We also talk about some wine trends that Eric is excited to see becoming more popular. His top recommendation for a bottle to bring to your next party or get together. And so much more, of course. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me orkandfizz on Instagram. And if you're interested in exploring new wines and joining an incredible community of wine lovers, be sure to sign up for my virtual tasting club, the Court crew. Head to thecourtcrew.com to learn more and use code winespecial to get your first two months for just $8 a month. Cheer.