Inside the World of Wine Certification (Scandals, Myths & Must-Knows!)

Ep 105

What does it really take to become a wine expert and do you need a fancy certification to do it? And is it really necessary to have one of these certifications?

In today’s episode I am breaking down two of the most popular wine certifications, the WSET and the Court of Master Sommeliers (CMS). I’m laying out how each one is structured, the different levels and what kind of wine roles each one is best for.

And we’ll talk about the 2018 scandal that rocked the CMS which resulted in rescinding the Master Sommelier title from every single person who had passed that year.

And we will dig into the Institute of Masters of wine, the Society of Wine Educators (SWE), the Wine Scholar Guild as well as free resources to help you build your wine confidence!

So, if you are ready to discover which wine certification path is right for you, without feeling overwhelmed by all the options then this episode is for you!

Resources

Tips for Smelling Wine with Cork Dork Author Bianca Bosker - https://www.corkandfizz.com/blog/tips-for-smelling-wine-with-bianca-bosker

Exploring Australian Wine with Jane Lopes - https://www.corkandfizz.com/blog/guide-to-wine-podcast-episode-34

The Ultimate Guide to Hosting a Wine Tasting Party at Home - https://www.corkandfizz.com/blog/guide-to-wine-podcast-episode-60

Episode Highlights:

• The value of wine certifications

• Overview of wine certifications

• Deep dive into WSET (Wine and Spirit Education Trust)

• Deep dive into CMS (court of Master Sommeliers)

• 2018 Controversies in CMS and subsequent fallout

• Deep dive into MW (Institute of Masters of wine)

• Society of Wine Educators (SWE)

• Wine Scholar guild

Don't Forget to Download my Free Wine Tasting Guide! - https://www.corkandfizz.com/free-wine-tasting-guide

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Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine, but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. I'm your host, Haley Bullman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So, grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello, and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. If this is your first time here, welcome. So glad to have you. And for those that have been listening for a while, you're the best. Love that you're here and here to learn some more. Today, we're gonna be talking about wine certifications. And I feel like at first, this, like, a topic doesn't seem very exciting, but there's so many options in the wine world when it comes to getting a certification. And I will say, like, right off the bat here, like, I am a total believer that you do not need a certification to become a sommelier. You do not need a certification to be a wine expert. There is no legal requirement for anyone to become credentialed to work as or call themselves a sommelier. It's honestly preferential, and it's one of those things where, like, it just depends on what job you're interested in or applying for that they might have certain, you know, prereqs or certain preferences on a certification of some kind. When I started Corgan Fizz, I had zero certifications when I officially started Corgan Fizz. I basically just, like, learned on my own, and I'll talk a little bit at at the end of this podcast about different ways that you can learn on your own and if you're not interested in going the certification route. I just basically read a lot of books at the got a lot of books from the library, did a lot of self study. But then when I did start cork and fizz and, you know, knew I wanted to create this business and become a wine educator that people could trust, I knew it would be helpful if I had something that said, hey, I know what I'm talking about for for anybody who, like, didn't know me. So I did end up going and getting my WSET level two, which is one of the certifications we will be talking about. Since then, I have thought about doing additional certifications, but honestly, it just has never been a high priority for me. I enjoy studying and learning on my own, and there are so many resources out there for me to do that that I haven't felt the need to get an additional certification. Can that change? Absolutely. And it probably will, especially after I did research for this podcast episode. I was like, oh, you know, that actually sounds kinda fun. So we'll see where it goes from here. But just that whole kinda caveat just to share, like, you don't need a certification to be a wine expert. I only have a w set level two. So out of all these things that I'm talking about, that is the only one I have personal experience with. But I did a lot of research so that we could learn about all the other different options in case you're curious. So with that said, let's dive in. Just a quick reminder, you are not on my mailing list yet. What are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under$15. Head to korkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show. Typically, we're gonna start with, like, the two most common and the two that most people choose from, when they wanna get a certification in wine are WSET, which stands for it's WSET. That's what I'm saying, WSET. And that stands for Wine and Spirit Education Trust, so they choose between that, and CMS, which is the Court of Master Sommeliers. So we'll talk about those two first. There are lots of options beyond these two popular choices. We'll cover a few of those, and they're even more than just what I have in this podcast. So let's start with the one that I am personally familiar with, and that is WSET, the Wine and Spirit Education Trust. So this was established in The UK, and it is a widely recognized certification body around the world. You'll notice as we talk about a few of these that they're some of them are more recognized in North America. I am based in The US, so that's kind of my focus area versus some of them are more worldwide. So WSET, worldwide recognition started in The UK, but you can find it just about everywhere. There are four levels to the WSET certification. So as I mentioned, I am WSET level two certified, but there are levels from one, two, three, and four. So when it comes to level one, I actually chose to skip level one when I was doing, my own certification. It is beginner wine knowledge. The exam is all multiple choice. It's one of those things that if you've done any self study on wine or feel pretty wine savvy, you can skip this and go straight to level two. I don't feel like I missed out on a lot by skipping this one. I had just done I think at this point, I had read quite a few books from the library. I'd gone and done tastings at, like, my local wine shops, but that was really about it. And it was more just like that I kind of, like, had an idea about wine. And then going into next level two is still an all multiple choice question exam, so it was 50 questions. And the way that this usually works is you'll take a course either across multiple weeks or, like, a weekend intensive course. They'll give you a book to study, and then you'll take the test. And at least to me, it felt like a lot of the material was still introductory level, like, maybe, like, introductory plus. So, like, if you've never done anything about wine or if this is literally the first episode of this podcast you've ever listened to and this is your first bout into the world of wine, then maybe you should do level one. If you've listened to a lot of episodes of this podcast, you're probably chilling and could probably do level two, but it is up to you. I took the course. I actually did it during COVID, so I that probably messes with this experience a little bit, because I think they prefer to do things in person. So I did take the course online. I did it through Napa Valley Wine Academy, and I even took the exam online, but I don't even think that's an option anymore. I remember I had to have two videos on me at the time of taking this test. Like, I had to have my laptop up, and then they didn't want you using your phone. So I had to borrow my mother in law's iPad, set it up five feet away from me, and, like, have it looking at me in a different angle than my laptop. It was really intense. So it's probably a good thing that you don't have to take this exam online anymore. But there are a lot of places that offer this. I've noticed wineries. I've actually started offering, like, WSET level two, weekend course where you can just go for two days, and it it is intensive. So you're gonna wanna read the book and, like, study the book before you go to the course, especially if you're doing that weekend intensive version. But it's a really great option to get that certification in a short amount of time. Now that's level two. Level three is definitely more advanced. This certainly takes a step up beyond the multiple choice questions in the exam. It also includes short answer and a tasting portion. You will learn about tasting in level two, but you won't be tested on it. In level three, there is a tasting portion. You don't have to guess the wine, so it's not like a blind tasting in that sense. It's more that you're able to describe the characteristics and judge the quality of the wine for level three. And then finally, level four of WCET is also called the level four diploma. And this is like this is like really steps beyond level one, two, and three. This is extremely intensive. There are six tasting sections in the exam, and then you have to submit a research paper on a wine related topic. So this is definitely if you know somebody going through WSET diploma, they are going through it right now. So it is definitely a lot more to it, but it can be really fun to kinda deep dive into this and, again, get to do kind of research on a wine related topic. When it comes to the cost of these things, the lower level ones can be as low as $250 or more. Like I said, I did mine through Napa Valley Wine Academy online. Not sure if that's still an option. Obviously, the cost increases as you go up in levels and it can be upwards of $10,000 for your diploma as you add in the cost of wine to taste and the courses. In my opinion, this certification, the WSET, is really great for folks wanting to learn about wine, but don't plan on serving wine like in a serving setting. Like you don't plan on being in a restaurant or in a bar, a sommelier in that sense of the term. There is no training or testing on serving of the wine, and it's focused just on theory, geography, wine characteristics, and tasting. And that's actually why I chose WSET over what we're gonna talk about next, which is the Court of Master Sommeliers. WSET didn't have a focus on serving. I really don't plan on ever being, a sommelier in the sense of a server. That is not something that interests me. I'm more interested in being an educator and, you know, this piece of it. And I felt like WSET was a good option for that case. And then with that said, of course, if you're interested in learning more about serving wine or you're looking to become a sommelier on the floor of a restaurant or even a wine director at a restaurant, you would probably wanna look into the Court of Master Sommeliers, and that's abbreviated to CMS. And, again, there are four levels here. So level one is the introductory level, level two is your certified somm, three is an advanced somm, and four is the master sommelier. And passing this exam at level four earns you the title of MS, master sommelier. And there are only 300 or so people in the world who have this title. So similar to WSET, the level one exam is all multiple choice, and there is no service or tasting portion. The thing is the difference here between WSET and the CMS Court of Master Sommeliers is that the level one certification expires after three years for CMS. So WSET, you could take level one and you'll have that certification forever. For court of master smalliers, you only have that for three years. Generally, the idea is you wouldn't take level one unless you are planning to at least take level two. So it's kind of just like a prereq going into the level two certified SOM course. Level two then immediately takes it up a notch. It has three sections on the exam. You have theory, blind wine tasting, and service exams. And I actually learned a lot about this exam. I was gonna say, like, I don't have personal experience, but I learned from someone else from Bianca Bosker's book, Corkdork, which is one of my favorite wine books. It is the book that got me into wine. I've also had a chance to interview Bianca on this podcast. She was one of the early interviews, so go back and listen to that if you wanna hear more from her. But she detailed her journey to passing the level two test and becoming a certified som. And it was really interesting to hear all these things about what she had to think about when you know, I think we have an idea of, like, what blind tasting is like. Right? You have to, like, sip, you know, look, smell, taste the wine, and think about, you know, where is it from, what are the the tasting notes you're getting on it, what is the variety. And then once you figure out the variety and maybe have an idea of where it's from, can you guess the vintage, Which would tell you like, you might figure out, like, oh, is it a warm or a cold year? And these are things you have to memorize. So that's some blind tasting. Theory is similar to, like, a multiple choice just like the factual information. But then the service exam, it was so interesting hearing about this. And I I remember she wrote about in her book that, like, the way that that worked is they basically had, like, the judges sat at different tables at, like, as if they would in a restaurant, and you would come up to the table and you'd have to answer all their questions. They would, you know, they would ask for recommendations. I like this. What would you recommend? Or, you know, I I had this Bordeaux from 1996, and I you know, do you have anything that's from a similar vintage but a different you you know, like, asking these really intense questions and, like, what's in this cocktail? Can you explain this to me, or what's, like, going beyond just wine? And then they'd also, like, often be troublesome, guests at times and see how you handle that. And then not only do you have to deal with that, then you have to come bring the wine, do all the things that you're supposed to do with service. And I remember there was, like, a specific way you're supposed to walk around the table. There's, like, a specific order and who you're supposed to pour the wine for. There is a lot to it. I am sure this is all just, like, I'm not even getting the tip of the iceberg with it. So definitely recommend checking out Bianca Bosker's book. She talks about, you know, going through and getting her certified Somme certification. Then you can actually learn more about passing the level four master sommelier exam by watching the Somme series of movies. That is where it actually follows in. There's a little controversy with those. So, like, to be fair, I'm not, like, highly recommending them, but they are interesting long as you, like, take into account and, like, look up who's in it. But it follows these sommeliers on their way to trying to achieve the master sommelier certification and try to pass their test. Now as I mentioned before, not only just with the Saw movies, but there is some controversy within the court of Master Sommeliers. There is hope that there is a culture change at this point, but there have been a lot of things that kinda make people a little weary of wanting to join the court of Master Sommeliers, especially as a woman or as a person of color. Now the first one doesn't have anything to do with those two. It's a there was actually a cheating scandal in 2018, and I actually had one of the folks who got caught in, like, the middle of this. Like, the way that the CMS, the court of master small, responded to this cheating is very controversial, honestly. And, you know, speaking from in with my own opinion is that they took it too far. They chose to rescind the master sommelier title from every single person who had passed that year, and I think they only do the test once a year. And so everybody who had worked incredibly hard to get to this master sommelier examination. Right? They have to go through all three levels before this, and then had passed the test and earned master sommelier, and they chose to rescind it from everyone. And I feel like there were other options besides that. And we actually had someone on the podcast, Jane Lopes, who was part of that. And her master sommelier was rescinded, but we very much still refer to her as a master sommelier. She earned that, and it's not fair that they took it away from her. So, yeah, not my favorite thing. And then, you know, definitely, I was gonna say far worse, but honestly, both of those are bad. But I mean, the the next thing that happened was in October of twenty twenty, the New York Times reported on allegations that several members of the court of master sommeliers had sexually harassed or engaged in nonconsensual sexual contact with women who are pursuing their own master sommelier certifications. And I'd actually heard about this type of behavior before this was announced. You can actually read about it in Victoria James's book. I wanna say it's called, like, the wine girl or something like that. And she describes some really difficult situations that she was put in and the way that people treated her and specifically men treated her while she was trying to study and become, you know, a master sommelier and being in the certification and the times that she went abroad and the people that she was around and just the inappropriate behavior that they showed. And so unfortunately, not a big surprise when this came out, but happy to see that they actually did take some form of action when they found this out and obviously proud of all the women who's, you know, came forward the time, spoke with 21 women who shared their accounts of abuse and harassment, and the court ended up expelling six members following a private investigation after the allegations. And this actually included Fred Dame, who was the cofounder of the American branch of Quartermaster Smallies. It actually started, I believe, in The UK as well. And then Fred Thiem was one of the first Americans to pass the exam and then started it in America and was the first president of the American branch of Court of Master sommeliers. But alas, we do not, we do not support that type of behavior. And thus, he was expelled from the membership of the Court of Master Sommelier. So, again, obviously, we hope there's some culture change there, but it always it's always good to be aware of as if because, I mean, when you're doing the work to join the Court of Master Sommelier, it's a lot of work, so you wanna make sure that it's worth it. Now there are other certifications beyond WSET and the Court of Master Sommeliers. So for example, you have the Institute of Masters of Wine. And now this is more, this is far more in-depth and definitely not for beginners. And, honestly, really the only for those working in the wine industry. So this is where if you've ever seen somebody who has MW at the end of their name, master of wine, this is how you get that title. So first of all, just to join the program, you need to have a WSET diploma or something equivalent to that. So, like, a bachelor or master's degree in wine or a top level sommelier certification. You also need to have three years of current and continuous professional wine involvement and a recommendation from a current master of wine or senior trade brew. So those are all just three recs to get into the program. Then to become a master of wine, there are three stages. Hey, wine lover. Interested in trying new wines but not sure where to start? Or maybe you've been thinking, I'd love to taste wine live with Haley. I mean, who isn't thinking that? Well, say hello to the Court Crew, my virtual tasting club where wine meets fun, learning, and the best happy hour you've ever had, all from the comfort of your couch. Every month, we explore a new wine theme together. You'll get expert tips, delicious food pairings, and stories that bring each bottle to light. You can order the feature wines from my partner shop, grab something similar locally, or just sip whatever you've already got. No pressure and no wine purchase required in this club. In 2025, I've made this club even better. You get to choose between two tasting dates each month and everything is recorded so you can catch up anytime. We've also just launched our exclusive Court Crew app, where you'll find all of your event info, wine recommendations, community connection, all in one place. It is accessible via your phone or your computer. As a member, you'll also get six free guest passes so you can invite friends, quarterly wine trivia nights, winemaker q and a's, a private online community, discounts on private tastings, and so much more. And when I say everyone is welcome, I mean everyone. Whether you're brand new to wine or a total cork dork like me, you'll fit right in. Loud or quiet, wine curious, or wine obsessed, this space is for you. Join today and get your first two months for just $8 a month. I mean, heck, that's like a drink at Starbucks. Use code wine special, no spaces, or you can save $80 on the yearly membership. When you sign up for the annual subscription, use code wine special dash year. Head to the courtcrew.com, that's the courtcrew.com, to sign up, and I'll see you at our next tasting. Cheers. So stage one includes a five day residential seminar and a four day nonresidential well, four nonresidential course days. You need to submit up to six pieces of work for assessment during the year, and then the overall assessment takes place in early June. It includes one twelve wine blind tasting paper and two theory essays. Let me remind you, this is just stage one. Now stage two Now, obviously, you need to pass stage one before you can get to stage two. Stage two is similar to stage one in that you have five day residential seminar, four nonresidential course days, and you're required to submit a range of assignments throughout the year. Then you take the first two parts of the master of wine exam. Yeah. The assessments in stage one don't even count as the master of wine exam, apparently. The first two parts of the master of wine exam that you take at stage two or at the end of stage two, I suppose. First part is theory. This is going to be five papers on viticulture, vinification and prebottling procedures, the handling of wine, the business of wine, and contemporary issues. Then there's a practical part. This is the second part of the master of wine exam, and you're not gonna do one at 12 wine blind tasting. You're gonna do three of those three twelve wines. So like blind tasting 12 wines in which the wines must be assessed for variety, origin, commercial appeal, wine making, quality, and style. It's kinda surprised by the commercial appeal. That's kinda cool. Like, you actually, like, look into, like, what do consumers think about this? And then finally, you have stage three. So you have to pass stage two. Right? And then you get to stage three. And this stage is dedicated to your research paper, which comprises of an individual piece of work between 16,000 words. The cool thing about this is that it's it can be a wine related topic in any of the areas of sciences, arts, humanities, social sciences. You can basically explore any topic however you'd like as long as you can execute a rigorous interpretation of the subject, and it contributes to the understanding of the wine world. So it's actually really cool. You can go on the website for the Institute of Masters of Wine and see all of the past research papers. So I was looking through some of them, and I I jotted down a few just to kinda give you an idea of, like, the range of topics that these research papers can cover. Everything from are universal glasses truly universal, the sensory impact of Lee's mixing treatment on traditional method sparkling wine, factors affecting Chinese wine consumers' preferences for wine in on trade and off trade channels, And my favorite of the bunch, a study of wine references in the lyrics of two American artists, Bob Dylan and Grateful Dead, in songs from the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. Like, how cool is that? That, like, I just I love that there's so many different topics and fun ways to go about it. And like I said, at the end of this, if you pass all of those stages, you have earned your master of wine title. I believe there are under 500 master of wine masters of wine, I suppose you could say. There's only 500 people who have that designation. Okay. I'm gonna talk about two more certifications. I know there's a lot. Right? So the next one is going to be the Society of Wine Educators, SWE. This one is highly recognized in North America. So we're less worldwide, more, based in North America, so Canada, The US, Mexico. There are two levels. The first is certified specialist of wine, CSW, and the second is certified wine educator. For these, there are no online or in person lessons. Everything is done via self study with the textbook. So for your first level, the exam is all multiple choice. I don't have personal experience with this, but, again, I did some research, found some folks who have done this, and they compared the level of knowledge needed for the CSW, the first, version certified specialist of wine first level. The level of knowledge needed to be between about WSET two and WSET three. Then the second level is CWE, and this was compared to similar knowledge to the WSET diploma, but it just had three components, tasting, multiple choice, and an essay. Now I, at one point, had actually started studying for the CSW. I did it after w set two, and I was like, oh, I should do something else. And I was like, oh, the certified wine educator seems like a good thing to go to. I'll start with the certified specialist of wine. But the information was so detailed and so intricate, And it felt like it was more about, like, memorizing facts and information than, like, connecting what I was tasting in a glass to the knowledge surrounding that wine. So at least for me, it was not a good balance or what I was necessarily looking for. Like I said before, it's also just it stopped being a priority. I think my big thing is teaching people about wine, and I like learning about wine in different ways. And that doesn't always look like reading a textbook, to be honest. But I would say this is a great option for folks who want to be professional educators and have a more in-depth knowledge in all areas of the wine world. And if you'd like a more structured way to learn about wine. Right? Like, I learn about wine by, you know, choosing podcast episodes and then doing research everywhere I can find it. If that's not your style and you'd rather have something very structured and be given a textbook and study that, this is definitely a good option for you. So that's the Society of Wine Educators. Okay. Last one we're gonna talk about is called the Wine Scholar Guild, and this offers specialized in-depth studies for those passionate about regional wine characteristics. So you're not gonna learn about wine as a whole. You're gonna learn about little regions within the and I shouldn't say little. You're gonna learn about big wine regions within the wine world. Their focus areas are Italy, Spain, and France for the most part. This one also includes really fun study abroad opportunities. Great option for wine enthusiasts, in my opinion. Like, you don't have to be a professional to enjoy this. Obviously, a good option for professionals too. But if you're more of a wine enthusiast, I think this could be a cool one to look into. They offer online or in person classes, and most of the exams are multiple choice, but there is a master's exam. And I'll talk about the different levels in a second. That does include some short essay questions and a map identification exercise. So the different levels. The most common is the middle level, and this is the wine scholar certification. Right? It's called the wine scholar guild. Makes sense that this is the most common. This is an industry recognized, wine course that provides current, accurate, in-depth information on the wines of either France, Italy, or Spain. And, actually, they've newly added Germany, which is kind of fun. They're designed for advanced students of wine, whether they're professionals or serious wine enthusiasts. Now if you don't wanna go quite that far, you can actually take an essentials certification. So this is a step before the wine scholar. This mainly goes over the need to know, like regions, grapes, and wines in just a few weeks. And, again, they have that as an option with either Italy, Spain, or France. And then on the flip side, if you wanna take it a little bit more in-depth and you wanna learn and this one is specific to smaller regions within the country and specifically within the country of France. And so the master certification program is an option if you wanna learn more about Burgundy, Bordeaux, or Champagne. And students for this master certification program gain critical thinking skills and a working knowledge of the history, the business, cultural, viticulture, and winemaking factors that make up these celebrated wine regions. And then finally, they do have two just kind of off I want what do I wanna say? Like, just, like, does not fit the levels. They have some specialty courses. One is the sherry wine specialist, and then they have Valpolicella explorer. So if either of those types of wine interest you, good to look into it. I will say as well oh, I think I talk about this a little bit, so I'll hold out. I was like, oh, I I know something related to them. We're gonna talk about it in just a second. So just as a reminder, just to kinda review the five different certifications that we just talked about on the podcast, we started with WSET. That is the wine and spirit education trust. Then we talked about the court of master sommeliers, CMS. When you pass your last exam of the court of master sommeliers, you become a master sommelier in MS. Then we had the Institute of Masters of Wine. This is the one that's for advanced wine professionals, I think I would say, and this is how you become a master of wine. And then you have the Society of Wine Educators where you can get you can become a certified specialist of wine or a certified wine educator. And then finally, you have the Wine Scholar Guild where you can deep dive into the wines from Italy, Spain, France, and now they just recently added Germany. Okay. Now I did mention before and I wanted to just highlight it really quick even though I realized we're this is getting a little long, but there are non certification options for learning about wine. So first of all, free options. Go to your local library. Just search wine on the, like, catalog or go to the wine section of the library and check out all the books that you can. Read all of those. You're going to learn so much. There are so many amazing wine books. And, of course, if you wanna support the authors, you can purchase in some of the books as well. And then of course there are podcasts. So there's this podcast that you're listening to right now. Great job. You found a free option. A couple of my other favorites include Wine for Normal People and Wine CEO. There are also other so this is the thing that I wanna talk about earlier. There are also online courses that you can take. These are not free. Right? So we are looking at spending a little more, but they're not as in-depth. So for example, WineFolly offers the WineFolly School, and they have classes like Wine one zero one, Napa Valley one zero one, Argentina one zero one, Walla Walla Valley one zero one. So basically, like, a good intro if you just wanna, like, deep dive and learn a little bit more about a region. The San Francisco Wine School is also one that I've taken a class from before. They have unique certifications like wine program management and also single classes on everything from wines from different countries to different areas in the wine business. You know, it could be wine business. It could be, I'm trying to think of some other things, but, yeah, definitely unique classes if you're interested in that. And then finally, Napa Valley Wine Academy does offer regional wine expert certifications. So things like becoming an American wine specialist, an Oregon wine specialist, Roan Valley, things like that, where if you wanna, again, deep dive into a specific region. Of course, there are other opportunities if you're like, I'm not up for a course or a class. The free stuff is great, but what else can I do to start learning more about wine? Of course, there is my court crew, my virtual tasting club. That is a great option if you want to learn about wine. You want something a little more structured, but you wanna do it with a community of folks and feel comfortable and confident around everybody. We get together at least once a month, learn about a new region, a new style of wine every time. It is a great opportunity for you to ask questions. Right? It's a small group, so you don't have to feel like you have to be quiet the whole time. We always have a really fun time. So highly recommend checking out the court crew if education on in learning more about wine is something you're interested in. I always recommend starting a wine tasting club with friends. I think I did a podcast episode on this. If not, check out my blog, and I have something on there about starting a wine club with friends. Honestly, just get together a bunch of people that you know, have them each bring a bottle of wine based on a theme that you choose. You know, summer's coming up, at least when I'm recording this episode. So maybe you do, like, everybody bring a rose or everybody bring a wine from Italy or, you know, anything you can think of. And then you get to taste a bunch of wines. You can also attend local tastings and ask questions, especially if you're in a big city. Seattle is a great spot for this. Obviously, New York, a bunch of spots in California. And even honestly, if you're in a smaller area, just look for local wineries and ask the people their questions. They're experts and they love talking about wine. I promise you. And then, yeah, that's those are great. I was gonna say my next thing is look for local tastings, but I just said that. That. So I said it twice because it is I put it twice in my notes because it is very, very important. Okay. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Feist Guide to Wine Podcast. Hopefully, talking about wine certification was not as boring as it originally sounded. If you loved this episode as much as I did, please take a second to rate it and leave a review. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them. In next week's episode, I'll be interviewing Jamila Conley. She is the founder of We Rise Wines, which is a new concept in wine and and a movement dedicated to amplifying the voices of underrepresented winemakers and reshaping perceptions of the wine industry. She recently opened a wine bar in Downtown Seattle called We Rise Wines. But before this, she actually spent twenty five years in executive roles across across technology, business transformation, and strategic leadership. So she takes her experience in that space and channels it, along with her passion for wine, into this unique space that she has created that celebrates diversity, inclusivity, and success for all. So I sure hope you tune in for that episode. Thanks again for listening. And if you wanna learn more about wine, come follow me at cork and fizz on Instagram. And if you're interested in exploring new wine and joining an incredible community of wine lovers, be sure to sign up for the virtual tasting club, The Court Crew. Head to thecourtcrew.com to learn more and use code wine special, that is wine special, no space in between, to get your first two months for just $8 a month. Cheers.