Wine, Storytelling, & Life Lessons with Natalie MacLean (Part 1)

Ep 88

How does one go from working at Supercomputer company SGI to becoming a renowned wine critic author?

Today, we are joined by Natalie MacLean, author of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass; Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines; and Wine Witch on Fire.

Natalie shares her transformation from tech to full-time writer, and dives into how storytelling can transform complex topics like wine into engaging and memorable experiences. The conversation turns personal when Natalie opens up about her memoir, Wine Witch on Fire, which blends wine education with deeply personal narratives about overcoming significant life challenges. And we chat about wine reviews; are they really helpful? 

Natalie is the wine expert on CTV’s The Social, Canada’s largest daytime television show; CTV News; CHCH Morning Live; and CityTV’s Breakfast Television. She was named the World’s Best Drinks Writer at the World Food Media Awards, and has won four James Beard Foundation Journalism Awards. She is the only person to have won both the M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award from the James Beard Foundation and the M.F.K. Fisher Award for Excellence in Culinary Writing from Les Dames d’Escoffier International.

So, if you are ready to dive into Natalie’s remarkable journey, her wine tasting tips, and the challenges and triumphs of navigating the wine industry then this episode is for you.

And don’t miss next week when Natalie is back on the podcast and we chat about her memoir Wine Witch on Fire, her struggles with drinking, and the bullying she endured in the online space.

Connect with Natalie:

Website: https://www.nataliemaclean.com/

Natalie’s Books: https://www.nataliemaclean.com/blog/books/

Free Pairing Guide& Book Club Guide: https://www.nataliemaclean.com/

Episode Highlights:

• Meet Natalie MacLean

• Natalie’s wine journey from tech to wine author

• Are wine reviews really helpful?

• Why you want to find a wine critic with a similar taste

• Connection through storytelling in wine writing

• Natalie’s memoir Wine Witch on Fire

• Mindfulness and alcohol consumption - balancing enjoyment and moderation

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine, but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Haley Bullman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business, Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. I am so excited to bring you such a cool interview today. I will be talking to Natalie MacLean. She is an accomplished wine expert from Canada, winner of 4 James Beard journalism awards, and author of 3 incredible wine books. Her first book, Red, White and Drunk All Over, A Wine Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass, and her second book, Unquenchable, a tipsy quest for the world's best bargain wines, were both selected as one of Amazon's best books of the year. And her memoir, which I managed to read in just 3 days, Wine Witch on Fire, Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much, recently became a national best seller. Funny, brainy, and unapologetically tipsy, her goal in life is to intimidate those crusty wine stewards that find restaurants with her staggering knowledge, but at the same time, make it entertaining and approachable to wine consumers that just wanna drink good wine. In my interview with Natalie, which you'll hear over the next two episodes, I ask her about how she got into wine writing and her take on whether wine reviews are dangerous or beneficial. We also discuss more difficult topics like online bullying, being different, her relationship with drinking, and misogyny in the wine world. So without further ado, let's get into the interview. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to have you. As I mentioned, I took forever writing these questions because I was so enthralled in your book. I'm like, no, I need to keep reading this so that I can Thank you. I'm glad you were enthralled by it. Yes. Yes. Exactly. So I'm excited to to dig into it more. This was definitely one of the most fun I had coming up with questions just because reading your memoir, I learned so much about you. So this is gonna be fun. Alright. But before we get into the questions, I did I had to point out 2 things because I just thought they were fun as I was reading through. So, obviously, we have wine in common, but I also noticed we had 2 at least 2 other things, so I'm sure we could find more. The first was you talked about before getting into wine, you worked at the supercomputer company SGI, right, in Mountain View, California, which is actually the headquarters of Google now, which is a company I work for. I am in Seattle, so I don't work at that headquarters, but I have visited. Have you been to Mountain View? Yeah. It almost felt like a flat thing, like, with all the primary colors. And, yeah, we used to have our sales meetings there, so vivid memories of that place. Yeah. I mean, nothing against Mountain View, but I definitely am happier to be in Seattle. It definitely gave a vibes of, like, we have a computer company here, and that's our thing. It is. It is. Absolutely. Yeah. No. It was just, it was a different culture. It was all sort of mesmerizing at the time, but, yeah, I quite I still remember those visits. Nice. And then on the other one, this one's, like, totally random, but when I was reading your book, you were talking about how you and your partner, Daniel, created this imaginary sitcom, you know, where he would try to figure out what was the good wine and what was the decoy. It made me laugh because my husband and I, we have this joke between us where we think we'd make a great sitcom. I think we just think we're really funny. Like Yeah. I was just glad that I wasn't the only one that thought of that. Oh, I know. It must be the narcissism of, tech slash wine geeks. I don't know. Or just the insularity of of our worlds that we think we could actually have a sitcom show. We were gonna name our show The Good Wine after The Good Wife I love it. Drama. And so each episode, could Daniel just, you know, identify the good wine? And it all started, of course, when, we met, he was drinking Wolf Blas yellow label. Nothing wrong with that wine, by the way, but he started noticing that my wines had different color. You know, even the reds had different colors and textures. And he goes, what's that? I'm thinking, doesn't matter. I'm drinking like a$50 giga hell a night. And, so he tried it, and then he became increasingly more expensive and complicated to date. So anyway but we've since combined, our passion for wine among other things, so it all worked out in the end. Yeah. Oh, I love it. And, see, yours at least had a concept. Ours is just like, wow, we're so funny. Compute our cameras should just follow us around. You never know. Yeah. You know. Who knows? Let's dig into your career. So I wanted to start with so you started taking the sommelier courses while you were working in tech. What encouraged you to do that? Well, it was a a bit of a road to get there. So, my then husband and I, we had we had the high-tech jobs. He was in finance at the time. And so we were looking for things to do together in the evenings. We were childless at the time. And so we started taking Spanish courses. But after a very long day at work, conjugating Spanish verbs at night was just it was like, oh, no go, no va. And then we tried golf, but, you know, we were both a type personalities. And so putting long iron clubs in our hands was just not a really good idea. We get frustrated. And then anyway. But then I saw this flyer for a wine tasting course at our local college, and I thought, we can do that. We can drink at night. I know we can do that. And, of course, I didn't realize just how much there was to wine at that point. All I thought of it's it's gotta be better than Spanish verbs and tee off positions and so on. So we did that. We loved it, and I kept going to complete a a sommelier certificate, and my then husband did not, but, you know, we just enjoyed wine so much more after learning about it. Oh, I love it. That that makes so much sense to me because I'm thinking in my head too. I'm like, yeah. No. I wouldn't wanna come home and learn a language and competition. And then you're like, but wine, drinking wine, that that sounds very, very capable. That's a great hobby, for me to jump into. Just a quick reminder, if you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under $15. Head to korkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show. So it also sounds like, so the connection, right, you're a wine writer. Was it always obvious that it would be like writing that you would get into when it came to wine? Or did you consider other areas of the wine world? Well, the I stumbled kind of almost backwards into wine writing because I as I say, as we just discussed, I was in high-tech, but I was off on maternity leave. And, of course, I hadn't taken a day of vacation. And, at SGI we would get 4 weeks paid leave for every I think it was 4 years we were with the company. So I had almost a year off coupled with, you know, the generous maternity leave in Canada And so I thought I have to keep my brain alive, and I'd already completed the sommelier course, and I thought, well, I know about tech. I had been to conferences where they were talking about wine.com, amazon.com, which was new back then. And, I thought I can write about how to find wine and food pairings on the Internet. And so I pitched a local food magazine because I I saw recipes, but no wines. She said, have you been published before? And I thought, yes. Thinking of my high school newspaper, praying she wouldn't ask for samples. She gave me a chance and that turned into a regular column. And that just gave me the confidence to cold call pitch editors at different magazines and newspapers. And by the time that year was up, I knew that I wanted to do this full time, not to return to tech. I could stay home with my son. I could do this. So it was all of those factors. Plus, if I looked at other fields like a sommelier or working nights that really didn't fit with having a newborn travel, I'm a homebody still. I'm a hermit, actually, an introvert. So this writing was just perfect. Up till that point, I didn't have the confidence that anybody would pay me to write. But as I look back on it now, my favorite part of my work in high-tech was writing customer success stories, focus groups, research, all of that. I loved it. Oh, so cool. So and I feel like that kinda gets into the I I wanna ask you kinda how you got into wine writing. Right? Because I feel like it's one thing where someone's like, okay. You drink wine. You write about it. You know? Great. And how do you how do you make people listen to you? But even just before that, since, you know, you you did enjoy writing, do you think you ever would have found something as fascinating to write about if you hadn't found wine? Had you ever thought about what else you could have gone into? Perhaps dance because I I was a dancer for almost 20 years, and I taught Highland dancing, Scottish dancing, but nothing is like wine in the way that it engages all of your senses and your intellect, plus you get the buzz. So, you know, dance has components of that, but not all of it. And I often say you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the hub, and then it connects to the spokes of all facets of human endeavor, whether it's science, commerce, history, art, religion, whatever. So it's a multisensory engagement of a subject, plus the intellect, plus the bodily buzz, but to be honest, and we could talk more about that. So nothing captured my imagination like wine did, all of me, mind and body. But I I used to joke that thank goodness I don't write about plumbing parts. I'd be visiting, you know, factories, dimly lit factories in, you know, dismal conditions. I get to visit vineyards. Not that there's anything wrong about writing about plumbing parts if someone has that as their job, but I just love that, you know, it's connected to hospitality, beautiful scenery, life's pleasures. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I love that comment on the liberal arts education around it because I I couldn't agree more. I I went to a liberal arts college, which is funny. So I kinda have that, like, background of, like, what that involved, and it did. It involved everything, and a lot of it I wasn't very interested in. But then start to get into wine, and suddenly I'm like, oh, wine history is cool. Like, the wine and war book going back and seeing, like, how the winemakers survived the war and, like, saved their wines, and, you know, it's like, this this is cool, and then you get into the science of how wine is made. And I'm like, wow. Suddenly, I'm into this. I think, I think a good wine related wine wine centric college sounds like a great idea. Oh, yeah. It'd be a lot of fun. I think, it would be hard to get into. I think there'd be a lot of competition to get into that one. I love it. Okay. So let's dive into then the career. So you get into wine writing, and like you said, it kinda happened backwards. Can you take us then from kind of that 1st year, like you said, you got that first column. How did you go from there to, you know, building your own website and being known as such a top wine writer? Oh, well, thank you. You know, I knew that creating a business out of a passion for wine would not be easy. Although I had training and credentials in tech, when it came to the wine world or even the media world of newspapers and print back then, I was a nobody from nowhere who was trying to make a career out of nothing. So persistence was a big part of it. And then, you know, the one thing tech did teach me was to call high. Start with the the senior editor, and then if your pitch trickles down through the organization, you have a better chance of it getting picked up versus the other way around. But I guess, you know, having that background in tech, it just seemed natural to me that wine and tech actually do overlap. Even though when I left the tech industry, I felt like I was, you know, running away from a brave new world where, you know, the motto is move fast and break things. Then stumbling onto the set of Downton Abbey where it was like, woah, slow down. You know, things change in wine every 1000 years or so. There's a lot of rules and protocols and everything else. But I just saw this great overlapping, then said, if you will, of the information and knowledge about wine is vast. How do you master it? How do you organize it? How do you search it? How do you get at it? And technology, which can help you do all of those things. You know? And back then, starting a website was just a natural thing to do. And then a few years later, I launched my own mobile apps, which I still have for Android and iPhone. And, you know, the they have the barcode reader and the optical label scanner reader, and it'll bring up my reviews. And, it's tied into the inventory system in your local liquor stores. So it just and now we have Chat UPT and all the rest of it. It just seemed natural to go from one stone to the other, perhaps because my background was intact. And so then I started to think, what are all the ways that I can connect with wine lovers? So there's print. There's, the website. There's the mobile apps. There's an enewsletter, which, again, I still have today. What else could I do? I have a podcast now like you. What else? I'm trying to think of the other books. They seem so retro. It's like, yeah, books. But you know, that flywheel of communication that Jeff Bezos talks about it. You're trying to meet people where they're at rather than expecting them to find you. And so all of those things just seem to fit together to me. I love that. And I think too, like, one thing that, like, you're saying without, like, saying it out loud, you're also, like like you said, with, like, trying to find how I can help consumer, how I can meet the consumer. Like, the idea that you're like, people want to drink good wine. Like, that's probably the main thing most people think of with wine. Like, there are total wine dorks like us that are like, tell me everything I need to know about it. But there's also people that just wanna drink good wine. You're like, how can I help them do that? And I think that's something that really jumped out at me was like, oh, she was just like, people wanna be able to figure out if this wine is a good wine, be able to search for that, you know, and know have somebody they trust, give them their opinion on the wine. And I think that probably helped a lot in growing because people are like, this is what I need. I need help finding a good wine. Yeah. And, like, the mobile apps were meant to be your pocket sommelier. I can't be there in the wine store with you, but you can take my reviews with you through the mobile app. You know? And I also I forgot one aspect. I teach online wine and food pairing courses. So a lot of people can't get out to a physical course, but they love getting together with other wine lovers online, as I'm sure you know too, Haley, because it you also teach courses. So I just think, you know, rather than expecting them to find us, we go out and find them where they are. Yeah. Oh, that's so great. I have to ask, it's something that always, blows my mind. Whenever I come across either wine writers or people in the wine world, do you ever tire of drinking so many wines at once or I should say tasting. Right? Right. You know, if you're, you know, if you're getting ready to do, like, an article on, like, Chilean Cabernet, you'll have, like, 30 plus wines in front of you. How do you not get, like, pellet fatigue, or do you have a system for going through all of these wines? Well, first of all, when I early on, I complained to some friends, you know, 30 Chilean Cabernets. They would, like, rub their fingers together going, no tiny violins playing for you. Oh, I have to taste wine again. Oh, no. More free wine. But as you know, it is a challenge. It's kind of like when a movie critic goes to a movie, they're not just sitting back and relaxing and kind of passively watching the movie. They're making notes on character development and narrative drive and all kinds of aspects. That's what we're doing when we're tasting wines. We're actually paying attention and trying to analyze them and write tasting notes that are comprehensible, easy to understand for those who might wanna buy those wines. And so as I tell my online course students, the difference between tasting and drinking is paying attention, well, is is thinking and spitting. So, yes, we do spit everything Yeah. Up to a point until we find something we like. But so do I tire of it? Yeah. Sometimes it it can be a bit much for your palate because wine has tannin, acidity, alcohol, sugar. It can be a bit of a, you know, wash and rinse washing machine for your mouth after 30 of them. But overall, I stay intrigued. I stay curious because there's always something surprising, either it's a wine that surprises me or changes or trends or just new flavors that light up different dendrites in my brain. That's what keeps me keeps me going, the curiosity. Oh, so nice. Yeah. I love that. Because it is. It's it's you'd have, like you imagine, like, 30 Chilean wine or Chilean Cabernets. You're like, how different can they taste? And I'm sure when you taste 30 of them, you're like, they can taste very different. They're different. And that's a great point, Hailey. It's it's, again, something I do with my students. It's only when you taste side by side that the differences in wines jump out because most people will say, well, I taste, you know, especially beginner to intermediate, they'll say, I'm smelling, I'm tasting. All I smell is wine or fruit. And it's like, do 2 side by side, do 3 side by side, and the differences are going to start jumping out at you. And then over time, you do build up, you know, stamina like a marathon runner who's training each day. You do build up a stamina for tasting batches of 30 and more wines. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. I think marathon runner because I'm like, I truly believe it. Like, I know, like, the whole, like, yeah, anybody who's not in the wine world is like, oh, so sad you have to taste 30 wines. But, like, I remember tasting, like, 10 wines when we were doing, like, a blending class, and my mouth was tired. I was like, I am not getting much anymore. You had a baby palate. I did. My first tasting, I walked in. There were 90 wines in the room, and I thought, oh my god. And I was done after 9 wines, and I wasn't even, swallowing. It's just like, oh, wow. Ow. I thought your grandma was just like, oh my goodness. No. It is definitely a thing. Well, talking about wine reviews, I also I have to be honest. I'm a little, like, unsure how I feel about wine reviews. Because I think the problem is that a lot of times, I think I think they're great for people who are new to the wine world because it explains the wine in a way that the label doesn't always. Right? Right. But I also think sometimes when they, you know, somebody new to wine walks into the wine shop and sees a wine review, they take that as fact. Like, this is what the wine is. And that's the one thing where I'm like, no, that's someone's opinion on the wine. Good place to start. And if you trust that person, great. It's probably gonna tell you if you like it or not. But as a wine writer and somebody who's wrote thousands of reviews, what do you think of wine reviews and how they can be used effectively? This podcast is sponsored by Repour Wine Savers. Listen, I love wine, but that doesn't mean I wanna drink a full bottle every night. You see, it's always a risk opening a bottle knowing I'll only have a glass or 2. But now, I don't worry about that at all because I have Repour. These little contraptions will keep your open bottles of wine good for up to 3 months by removing oxygen from the bottle using fancy chemistry, and they're so easy to use. I simply open a bottle of wine, cork, or a screw cap, just like normal, and enjoy my glass or 2. Then when I'm ready to call it a night, I rip the foil off my RePORT wine saver and place it in the bottle in place of the cork or screw cap, and then stick the bottle in the fridge. Simple as that. Then whenever I grab another glass from that bottle in the future, I just make sure to put the ripour back on as soon as I'm done pouring. It's that easy. Wanna give ripour a try? Head to repour.com, repour.com, and use code corkandfizz for 10% off your order. That's repour.com, and use code corkandfizz. No spaces in that, and the and is spelled out. So it's corkandficc. Once you have repour, you'll never have to worry about opening a bottle of wine just for one glass. I mean, heck. Now you can try 2 or more wines at the same time and have your own at home wine tasting. This podcast is sponsored by the Court Crew Virtual Wine Club. Interested in trying new wines, but not sure where to start? Or maybe you've been listening to this podcast for a while, and you love the idea of tasting wine live with me. If that's you, come join my Court Crew virtual wine club, and you'll get to sip wine with me twice a month while I help you find new favorite wines. The Court Crew is not your ordinary wine club. This is a community of people who are passionate about exploring new flavors, learning about different wine styles, and having fun along the way. And the best part about this club, purchasing the wine is completely optional. Plus, all events are recorded, and you have access to the full library of recordings as a court crew member. So you can always catch up if you can't make it live. Oh, and did I mention it's virtual, which means you get to do all of this from the comfort of your sofa in your PJs. No need to worry about driving in crappy traffic, finding a designated driver, or spending an arm and a leg on a taxi. Wanna give it a try without the commitment? You're in luck. Right now, I'm offering a free class pass to anybody who wants to try out the Court Crew virtual wine tasting club. With this pass, you'll be able to join a Court Crew event of your choosing. No strings attached. I don't need your credit card. I don't need you to sign up for anything. You'll be my guest. Simply head to corkandfizz.com/freeclasspass to get your class pass and be one step closer to becoming a member of the best wine tasting club around, the court crew. I can't wait to see you there. Now let's get back to the show. Well, for the first three years of my writing life, I tried to do just long form narrative. I avoided reviews like the plague, because I was too snobby about them. I thought they were like the recipes of the food world, like wine reviews. But truly, what's of greater service? A a nice long narrative piece that some people read, but not a lot, or those short form wine reviews that are of service to consumers who want guidance. Because unlike wine geeks like us, Haley, not everybody wants to spend hours combing through books and magazines and websites to, you know, to find which wine will we have this weekend. We love spending time doing that. But for a lot of people, it's like, give me an easy shorthand to understand so I can buy my wine like I buy toothpaste. I want a good brand. I wanna trust that this is a good recommendation. I'm gonna have a good taste experience. So, you know, in the beginning too, I didn't score wines because I thought that's that's ridiculous. Like, would you score Mozart or, you know, Jane Austen? How can you trap a completely subjective sensory experience in a number? But, again, my readers wore me down because they wanted a shorthand they could easily understand. And most of us, you know, through school have had papers and assignments graded out of a 100. Everybody gets that a 85 is not as good as a 90, and the 95 is really great. And as you said, you have to find someone who lines up with your own palate so that, you know, when that when that critic or writer gives a y 90, you know, you can trust that. But that being said, I also try to encourage my readers to take a look at the tasting notes. So I may have given a Beaujolais, a nice light fruity red wine from the south of France, a 93 because it's a great Beaujolais. But if you love a full on honking full bodied red wine like an Amarone, you're not gonna like that wine. So don't buy by the scores. Look at the tasting notes as well. I think that's great advice because it goes into the fact that, like, wine is also, like, it's a personal preference. Right? Like, when it comes down to it, one, like, the critic themselves, like, they like things that might be different than you. You need to find somebody who matches you. Like, I know that the big one everybody talks about, Robert Parker, was always into really big, bold wines. The bigger, the better. Right? And if that's your palate, go find his scores, and that's gonna, you know, match with you. But like you said, you also scored based off the style of wine that it was. Like, you gave a Beaujolais, which is this light, fruity, really fun wine, a high score because it was a good Beaujolais. Not just because it was straight out a good wine. I think it depends on what you also like. So that combination of check the tasting notes, don't take the tasting notes is, like, that's the only thing. Like, if you don't smell that thing, also totally fine. If you smell something different, that makes sense. Exactly. But use kind of the combination to find for your own preference and using, like, expert advice almost. Yep. The best pairing is between you and your own palate. You know, doctor, was it doctor Spock who said to young mothers, trust your instinct, your intuition when it comes to getting your baby to sleep? I say that to to my readers, trust your own palate. If you don't like it, it's not because you're less evolved or whatever. It's just not to your taste. So find wines and maybe a person, critic who lines up with what gives you pleasure, because that's Yeah. That's the most important thing when it comes to wine. Yes. The joy. That's like the one thing that I've gotten after getting into the wine world is so much it just brings me so much joy, and that's why I'm so interested in it and and diving into it more. I do wanna dive into a little bit. So I got the chance to read a lot of your memoir before our chat, and I'm glad I did because I got to learn a lot about you and a lot of stuff from the past that, like, I wasn't into wine. I don't think I don't think I graduated high school yet, so I wasn't legally allowed to drink wine. So I'm glad I got a chance to read it. And a lot of the memoir goes over these professional attacks and online bullying that you dealt with. And first of all, that it was hard to read as, you know, another female in the wine world and somebody who's like, I have not gotten into that level. I got one negative review once, and it broke me. Like, I was just devastated. And it was like a negative review that negative review that didn't have facts in it. Like, it wasn't even true. And it's still like it hurts so much. And so when I was reading that, I could really, you know, I hadn't had the same exact experience, but I could empathize and just like feel how much it hurts when, like, it's it's just coming at you so hard, and the Internet does not hold back because people are not in front of you. They're like, they, you know, they're Everybody's got that keyboard courage. Everybody say lots of things they would never say to you in person. They're not Yes. And it's like it's because it's just yeah. They can't there's nothing they don't see the person I find a lot of times. It's like they forget there's a person, and so one thing I you know, obviously a lot of terrible things had happened in that, but one thing I really wanted to call out as this podcast that it reaches a lot of people who are wine enthusiasts and people who love wine in different ways is that I feel like they very quickly belittled your work and questioned it because it wasn't purely educational. It was entertaining as well, and it was like a different take on the wine world. And that as well. It was like, that's me. I very purposely, like, I didn't come into the wine world the way that, like, a lot of people do. I only have one official certification. Like, I kinda get into it in a way that I find it fun and share it with other people. And I would hate for people to think that, like, I'm taking up space for somebody else who, like, knows more about wine or has done it in a more professional way. And so Sure. The I wanna take it on the good side. I wanna call that out because I think that's wrong and bad. Absolutely. Well, that's a great point that you raised, Haley. I mean, I think sometimes there's a misguided belief that to be professional, you have to be serious, maybe even a bit boring. And we are talking about wine as part of a lifestyle of community and conversation and pleasure. And so I am of the firm belief that you need to entertain before you can educate. And they've done lots of scientific studies that say our brain is most open to messages and remembering information just after we laugh. You know, our defenses are down, and laughter is part of our emotional system, which is part of our limbic system in the brain. That is memory. That is reward. That is emotion. All of that is tied together, and that's why we also remember wines. Like, if you taste a wine sometimes or just smell a smell, you'll remember where you were, maybe even what you're wearing, something strange like that, because that's the only part of our brains where all of those things mix together. So you've got to get in there. If you want to disarm someone from their prefrontal cortex where the seed of logic and executive decision, and you want them to, hey. Relax. Let's let's learn about this wine. I firmly believe you need to entertain them first in some way, whether it's through storytelling or humor or or something. Yeah. And I think that works for right? And you're like, it works for anything. Like, when you think about, like, back when I was in school, I didn't enjoy history very much. But now give me a book that has a story in it where I'm, like, following an actual person and, like, diving into that. Suddenly, I'm way more connected. And so my question, which I think you already hit on, was, like, people are very clearly, you know, enthralled with your writing and it's it's, you know, it's it's connecting with them in both the writing and then you also do plenty of TV segments. You know, is it that like ability to connect and like make them laugh and and have that entertainment that you think makes it so successful for you? I hope so. It is what I attempt to do. The storytelling is really important. So I'm always trying to focus on the person behind the bottle or something that unusual that happened while drinking this wine or a weird wine and food pairing, something that starts to tell a story. Because, again, we're wired for story, and they've done scientific studies where if someone's telling a story to someone else, eventually their brainwaves start to sync up, go and and be synchronous. Just that's how, you know, we come from an oral tradition of storytelling. Today, of course, we've got the written medium, the Internet, and so on, but our brains are still wired for stories. So that's one component, I think, that makes any sort of communication or piece of learning more interesting. A conversational style. Again, I I try to talk like we're talking now. Like, we'd be at your kitchen table rather than stiffen jargony. And, you know, try to find the people in the wine industry who are colorful. Like, I seek them out. Like, you've probably heard of Randall Graham at Bonnie Doon in California. He's just this wild man with lots of wild ideas and humor and everything else. So I went to help him with the harvest. So through that, you're getting the story of him, but you're also getting the color of being out in the vineyard. You're learning how wine is made, how vines grow, and so on instead of a textbook approach of first, you know, the vines are planted and they have a 7 year cycle and blah blah blah blah. You know, I think people really will ride along with you on a story, and then the bonus is that they'll remember the information as well. Yeah. Absolutely. When I think of some of my favorite wine books, that's exactly what they do. They they have plenty of education, but they do it through a story. You know, they take you through something. I remember one of my favorite books when I first started learning about wine, the adventures of oh, was it adventures on the wine trail? On the wine trail. Kermit Lynch. Yes. Yes. I loved it because it, like Isn't that great? It taught me about all these different regions and wines, but did it in a way that, like, followed his travels. And like you said, it that that story part of it just enthralls you, and then you get to learn along the way, which is a lot of fun. Kermit Lynch is my all time favorite wine writer, even though he probably wouldn't consider himself a wine writer. He's he's, was and may have retired by now, but was a wine importer in Berkeley, California, very close to Chez Panisse Alice Waters famous restaurant, and he wrote of it his experiences, and I I actually tried to model my well, especially my first two books on what he was doing, storytelling, a day in the life of, etcetera. And, he kindly endorsed those books for me, but, he stands out as I think one of the best, if not the best wine writers in quotes of all time. I love that. Okay. I wanna get to your other two books. But first talking about the memoir, I realized I never said the name of it. So the name of it, I think I'll probably say it in the intro, but Wine Witch on Fire, an odyssey from the ashes of divorce, defamation, and drinking too much. It's brought to you by all the dismal d's. There is humor. It's not about an angry woman who owns lots of cats and drinks lots of No. Plenty of humor. I can definitely say that. No. I love it. And I think one thing that was cool about that, exactly what we're talking about, where, like, you can entertain and educate. It was a memoir, but there were definitely some good wine tips and tricks kind of hidden in there. Yep. I remember one where you talked about, you know, if you were just gonna have half a bottle of wine, you would pour the other half in a small half bottle so that it would stay better. Why why is that? Why do you do that? Well, for many reasons. So some of the tips in my book are what I'm going through as a wine professional to cut back on drinking too much. So I didn't intend to write a self help book, but some people a lot of people actually use it that way. They read it and then use the tips themselves. So this one, you know, opening a a full bottle of wine, when you pour half of it into a half clean half bottle, you're reducing the exposure of the wine to oxygen. Oxygen is what makes everything age, including us. You know, you cut open an apple, it's gonna turn brown on the counter. You leave wine out, it'll eventually turn to vinegar. So by pouring half of it into a half bottle, you're slowing down that aging process. Of course, you're gonna cap it. And there's various other devices that you can use, like the repour gadget we've talked about in the past. The other thing though too is it was part of my set of techniques to moderate my drinking because it made me more mindful of how much I was consuming. I was setting pregame plan of how much I would consume, whether it was that half bottle or I was sharing that half bottle with with Daniel instead of just keeping topping up and topping up and topping up. And the other thing, the third thing, sort of a mental game, but it's so important. Sometimes you open a nice bottle and you think, oh, it's already open. It's exposed to the air. It's not gonna be as good tomorrow. It's kinda like the clean your piece on your plate kind of thinking. I may as well finish it. But if you've stored it properly in a half bottle or some other gadget, there's preserve sprays and all sorts of things. By the time you get to glass 2, you don't, like, throw it all in and say, let's just finish the whole thing. So it's a neat little simple trick that has many benefits to it. Yes. I and I really appreciate that you talk about that. I wanna talk about that more later in the podcast about the fact that wine has alcohol and that, like, as wine enthusiasts, right, like, we drink a lot of alcohol because we enjoy wine. And so I love that that tip is both, like, here's how to save your wine, just, like, purely scientific. But, also, this is a good thing to do because I totally do the same thing. I can see myself, like, opening a good bottle, especially if, like and if I'm my husband's not having any of it that night. It's, like, so easy to just be like, oh, just throw another one, and then it's like, oh, there's only, like, that much left in the bottle, which is, like, at least another full glass. So, like Right. 2 tastes like 3. 3 tastes like 4. It's like lose your your inhibitions. I mean, alcohol does releases of our inhibitions. And for those of us who are introverts and shy, that feels great. It feels like a release, but it also starts to shut down or your prefrontal cortex, that seat of judgment, executive decision. You know, after a glass or 2, you're thinking, whatever. You know, you you start and that's why we get the munchies, and we do we say and do things we probably regret in the morning. So make those decisions upfront before you get into the actual drinking. Yeah. Great idea. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the cork and fizz guide to wine podcast. You can find all of Natalie's books on Amazon or likely at your local bookstore. You can learn more about Natalie and find her free wine and food pairing guide on her website at www.nataliemclean.com. I'll also include links to all of these things in the show notes. If you love this episode as much as I did, I would so love it if you could take a quick second, rate it, and leave a review. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them. It would mean the world to me. In next week's episode, you'll hear part 2 of my conversation with Natalie. We'll discuss what a healthy relationship with wine looks like and whether misogyny in the wine world has improved, along with what advice Natalie has for women getting into the world of wine. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at corkandfizz on Instagram. And if you're interested in exploring new wines and joining an incredible community of wine lovers, be sure to sign up for my virtual tasting club, the corkcrew. Head to corkandfizz.com/freeclasspass to come check out a tasting for free. Cheers.