Behind the Scenes of the Punk Rock Side of Wine with Paul Greico, Owner of Terroir Tribeca

Ep 49

What would you do if you were asked to leave your college and your punishment was to work in your parent’s restaurant and go to Italy for 28 days to visit wineries. 

Would you go? 

You better believe that is what today’s guest Paul Greico did and it set a chain of events into motion that would ultimately culminate in Paul becoming the founder and owner of the punk inspired wine bar, Terroir Tribeca in New York. 

Paul is dropping all the tea when it comes to owning a wine bar and running it in an unconventional way.

How unconventional? Well, one summer he only served Riesling. Yep that’s it and since then he’s done something Riesling inspired every summer. He’s coined it “The Summer of Riesling”.

Paul is going beyond just the glass of wine in this episode. In fact he thinks the whole idea of describing wine by its acidity, body, and aromatics is ridiculous because it’s so subjective! 

He’s diving into the emotional connections of wine, the historical significance of wine and sharing misconceptions when it comes to wine prices in restaurants. 

So, if you are ready to reflect on the significance of storytelling, emotional connections, and unexpected pathways within the world of wine, grab a glass of wine and press play!

Episode Highlights:

• The story behind Terroir Tribeca in New York

• Focus on experience and celebration of food and wine

• The subjective nature of wine tasting

• Storytelling in wine

• Transformational aspect of wine

• Misconceptions behind restaurant wine pricing

• How wine and music are similar

• What is the “Summer of Riesling”?

• Generational change in wine drinkers 

Connect with Paul:

www.wineisterroir.com

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Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine, but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Haley Bullman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business, Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. I am so excited today to share with you a conversation that I had with Paul Greco. Now with each of these interviews, I always ask the person that I'm interviewing to send me a little intro, a little about who they are. And so here's what Paul said when I asked for that. Birthed in Toronto, Canada. Suckled by saints and villains. Nurtured by anarchists. Taught by monks. Inspired by the damned. Yes, the band. Paul is the founder and owner of Terroir Tribeca, a punk inspired wine bar in the Tribeca neighborhood of New York City that's been around since 2010. The wine list at terroir isn't just a wine list. It's a binder full of pop culture references and notes scribbled in the margins about the wines. Paul is also a die hard Riesling fan, and hosts a yearly experience called Summer of Riesling, which we will learn more about from him. If your idea of a wine professional is a fancy snob in a button up suit, get ready to be proven wrong. So without further ado, let's get into the interview. Hello. Hello. How are you? I'm good, Hailey. How are you? I'm good. Thanks so much for joining me. Super duper. Pleasure to be here. Alright. Well, yeah, we'll just jump right into it. I always do a little intro for you in the beginning, but I feel like it's best to give you a chance to introduce yourself. So can you talk about just who you are and what you do? Brock on. My name is Paul Greco. I am the general and manager, very different from the general manager of terroir in New York City. I consider it a restaurant. I know some people think of it as a wine bar, but we get to do whatever the hell we want here. So there you have it. It is terroir. We do what we want, when we want. Terroir has been open the first one opened in 08. The one we're at now in Trebek opened in 10, and I am a lifelong restaurateur. In addition, I am a beverage director, saw him all of that shit, but I am first and foremost a restauranteur. Okay. I like it. And see, that's why I wanna make sure you get a chance to do your intro and say exactly what you wanna be known for. So talking about wine, we'll get into the restaurant. I'm very curious to talk about the wine bar over restaurant kind of idea. But first, what originally sparked your interest in wine? I always find this to be a fun story for everybody of, like, they either fell into wine and very few have family in wine, but I know you have some experience in restaurant, maybe not wine. But, yeah, tell us how you fell in love with wine. Absolutely. I'm a 3rd generation restaurateur. My grand father opened a restaurant in Toronto, Canada in 1961 and or 62, I think. My father joined him on the first day, and I was literally born there in 65. So the sounds of growing up in a restaurant family might mean to some that I grew up with lots of different food stuffs on the table, lots of wines on the table, all of that, and not is not the case at all. My father never forced it upon us. We ate a classic American Canadian diet. I was an aspiring athlete, so I didn't drink any alcohol till I was 18. I was fixated on becoming a professional athlete, a soccer player. That, of course, never happened. I fell back in university, and let's just say that at university, I, practiced too much hospitality and was asked to leave. And my father grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and said, you are going to work, and you are going to work at our family's business. I went into it reluctantly, but I had no other choice. 3 months into it, my father sat me down and said, listen, I'm sending you to Italy for 28 days. And in those 28 days, you're gonna spend 2 weeks in Tuscany. You're gonna spend a week in Piedmont. You're gonna spend a week in the Veneto. You're gonna visit these wineries, these restaurants, blah blah blah. And I'm not lying to you when I say I went there reluctantly. I was like, that sounds like such an awful punishment. I mean, damn. Well, if you grow up in a family business, they are great, and they suck. That's fair. At this point, we're in the honeymoon phase, so let's go with that. So, listen, being by yourself in Italy for 28 days, I was was super stoked on that thing. I knew in the back of my brain, though, that in going and doing this, it most likely meant that I was making a commitment to the restaurant. Okay. Fine. So when I was there, I interacted with a lot of different people, certainly in the restaurant business, but wineries, winemakers in various regions, all of that. And I guess you could say I fell in love with wine. More specifically, yes, I enjoyed a lot of different things at university, but I had dreams of being a renaissance man, studying all of these different things. And a university, they don't want you to do that. They want you to state a goddamn major as quick as possible. So I would sign up for all the requisite courses and then drop them after 3 weeks and just go do my own shit. What I realized on this trip is that the world of wine involved a lot of disciplines, fields of study that I was really interested in. History, philosophy, religion, culture, civilization, sociology, geology, geography, the culture of the tabletop, and you got to drink some yummy goddamn juice, need some yummy goddamn food. So in relative terms to my people at my family's restaurant, I went to Italy an ignoramus. And when I returned 28 days later, comparatively, I was a relative genius. In addition, I found an avenue that really rocked my fucking world, Hailey. And it was that trip when I was roughly 21, 22 that changed everything for me. Yes. It did make me enjoy much more this restaurant industry. I learned what being engaged with people at a table meant, what a celebration of food and wine meant, what it allowed you to do, and all of that. So that was an avenue. And then here was this this grape juice avenue that I got to dive into, and I'll jump ahead to maybe the end of the story, which is and the story is not yet done, by the way, that when I engage with wine today, be it personally or if you, Haley, or your guests were to come and join me at terroir, I rarely talk about what's in the glass. I've gone through that stage in my SOM career where we would talk about wine table side, and and I would ask what you would like, and then I'd bring over a wine. And I'd say, oh, yes. It's light to medium weight, bone dry, crisp acidity with aromatics of blah blah blah blah blah blah. All of that crap, which is how you learn and what you do. And after time, one might realize that all of that stuff is subjective. Right. All of those words I just used to describe that wine are subjective. And while I work quickly, as do most people working the floor of a restaurant, to understand completely what you're looking for, when we get into taste, which is subjective, which makes the world of wine so hard sometimes, so incomprehensible. I didn't wanna deal with that shit. I wanted to talk about the stuff that surrounded the glass, the so called objective shit, the stories. And I was certainly part of that movement in the Psalm world. Let's put it in the late nineties, early o's, when we would say to each other, you know, I do not just want to be a cork puller. I wanna be a story teller. So I did my best in those early years and absolutely do now to be a story teller. Yeah. And that's how I interact with the world of wine, with all of those fields of study and discipline that I still today relish very, very much. I find at times, Haley, those stories are the things that I find and that I think most people find to be fascinating and that pull you back in. Couldn't agree more. I think wine is that super cool thing of just, like it it combines so many things, like you said. I mean, I was never a history person till I started learning about wine. And now I'm like, I wanna know all the history behind where did this wine start, and, you know, why is it famous here and not here, and why did you know, and all these things are, like, just recently, I opened up an older bottle of wine. And that idea of, like, wow, when they were making this wine, my mom was 5 years old. And how cool that, like, I get to experience this part of the story that, you know And and I think all those pieces, like you said, even more than, like, it's great to enjoy what's in the glass, but it is a 100% subjective. I couldn't agree more. It's the things around the wine that I think makes us wine enthusiasts for the most part. Almost like I'd say, like, 99% of wine enthusiasts enjoy everything that surrounds the glass of wine. Yeah. Listen. At the end of the day, it's grape juice with alcohol. That is what it is at the heart of the matter. Okay. And there are days when, I'm sorry to say it, you need a glass of grape juice with alcohol or would make the day a completely different thing and and you need that. Okay. Fine. But all of that other stuff, I wish we'd get away from all of that. You know? But many journalists have written about the vocabulary of wine and changing that thing. I don't have those answers yet. But to what you said, a cool aspect of wine is that transportational aspect of wine. Examples are myriad. For instance, you and a loved one go to Tuscany on your honeymoon. You dine at kick ass Trattoria, Nosturrias, you have Chianti in Chianti Classco. You have Brunello Montalcino. You have Vinonoble. Blah blah blah. And then you come back home, and you're cooking Italian food, that night for dinner, a pasta dish, and you go to the local store and holy shit. They have one of those wines on the shelf. You buy that, you bring it home, you pull the corn. And when you're interacting with that wine, you are brought back to that place and that time through that liquid. That is pretty fucking cool. I guess music for some people, for many people, brings them back to a time and a place. I don't think a lot of things do it though as intimately as wine. And as the example you just gave, when you do crack open an older wine, a wine with some serious age, and you realize, holy, this was made when my parents were born or whatever. What was the world like, for argument's sake, in 1945 when I'm pulling the cork on that 1945 Mouton Rothschild, you know, the World War dead, blah blah. And you can go there with this thing that is just coursing through you. That's pretty fucking cool. Right? Oh, I love it. I know. And that that's everything I love about it. So I'm gonna ask you this because I'm gonna you're probably gonna have to try to shorten this because I know a lot happened between, but I wanna know how did you go from coming back from Italy. Right? You're now inspired. You love this idea of wine, and you're more interested in the restaurant business to then opening Terroir. Can you give us, like, a few little, like, mile stones along the way? Just a quick reminder, if you are not on my mailing list yet, what are you waiting for? I would love for you to join. When you do, you'll get a free shopping guide that has 15 of my favorite wines under$15. Head to korkandfizz.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there'll be a little section where you can join the mailing list. I send out a weekly newsletter filled with wine tips, recommendations, special offers, and so much more. Now let's get back to the show. As I said earlier about the family business, it's great. Every day, I got to work with my grandmother, grandfather, mother, father. Awesome. And there were days that sucked. And our restaurant opened at a time when fine dining was of a certain style. Here I come along in the mid eighties, and dining has changed. The look and feel of restaurants is changing, especially in the Italian restaurant world. What appealed to a diner in 1962 does not appeal to a diner in 1985. And I found my grandfather and I having these conversations and agreeing on stuff, sort of what the hell. And then when I talk about these things with my father, we'd be butting heads. K. And my mother sat me down one day and said, you know, when your father comes home, he complains about you to me. And when you see me, you complain about your father to me. I'm not gonna have this anymore. And if I have to make a choice, I'm choosing your father. Righteous choice. So it was at that point that I felt I couldn't go anywhere else in Toronto and do what I was doing, that it would embarrass my father because of the nature of our restaurant. So here I come to New York City, you know, the restaurant, capital of the world, things in many ways still is, and I could do anything I wanted here. And, I was able to get job as a server pretty quickly. The restaurant in Midtown Manhattan called Remy. And here I am, 30 4 odd years later, shortly after I arrived, my grandfather was on his deathbed, and I went home and spoke to him. And he said to me, and this is this is no shit. This is the real deal. He said, Paul, three things. 1, stay in New York. 2, get married. 3, move to Queens. So I've done 2 of those things. The move to Queens part, I have no goddamn clue, but here we are. Fair enough. When he died a few weeks later, I went home for the funeral, came back. When I returned to the restaurant I was at to get my schedule and say, hey. I'm back. I'm checking in. What's going down? They let me know that they had fired a manager in my absence. And I'm like, well, where are you gonna look for new manager thinking there's no way this kid from Toronto, unknown in New York, is gonna get a job as a manager in New York City with all that NYC is? And lo and behold, they offered me the job, and they said, you need to give us a year of commitment. I had originally intended to stay in New York for a few months, then go to LA, then go to Europe and do shit, and then eventually make my way back to Toronto to try and take over the family business. And here I still am. I've worked in a bunch of different places in those early years, Remy, Boulet, Gotham, Gabriel's, Judson Grill. I went to Gramercy Tavern in 95, was there for 7 years. And when I left in o two, I had been the AGM, beverage director, service director there. Loved every goddamn moment. And what happened in 02 is I got a desire to finally open my own gig, and that was hearth that I opened with Marco Kanora in 03. And then the first terroir opened in 2008, and that was terroir East Village. So that brings us roughly up to the present time, I guess. Right. Wow. That's amazing to think that the reason here in New York and possibly the reason terroir has is there is because you needed to be there for a year to be a manager at that restaurant. That's wild when you think about all those little decisions. Okay. So you opened a restaurant, but you also opened terroir. And now I think of terroir trabeca as a wine bar, but you also mentioned it as being a restaurant. I kinda wanted to just touch on, like, do you think there's anything special about, like, wine bars over restaurants? And, like, could you ever see yourself going back to, like, a full fledged restaurant versus wine bar? Well, terroir has morphed over all the years it's been open. When the re OG, Tirwaris Village, opened in o eight, it was very much an adjunct to hearth. It was a 100 feet away. It was 450 square feet. You couldn't do much in there. The real estate demanded a certain concept, and that's why we leaned into the wine bar thing. I had no desire to open a wine bar back then. Really? Mark, when I walked in the space, we got what we got, and we didn't get upset. We said, well, let's do this. And we were able to feed off of what hearth was in terms of the beverage program, the food, all of that. And as we went on from there and opened other terroirs, the real estate changed. In Trebeca, it is 3 times as big as that OG. And while in its initial exposition, let's call it, it was still in that wine bar stance because Marco and I, from a a restaurant fine dining perspective, were focused on hearth. But he and I eventually split up as personal relationships fall apart, so do business relationships, unfortunately. And so I've had a series of chefs over the years, and the chef now, Bryce Sorum, is a very different individual than everyone that came before him, and we are pushing the envelope on food. So that's why I believe this place. If you look at our menu and everything that we're trying to do from our super small kitchen, kick ass big menu. Anyway, to your question, I think an overt wine bar as it is defined in most people's mind, with arguably 25 to 30 somewhat glasses of wine and small plates, cheese, charcuterie, nibbles more than anything else, all fine and dandy. But in this day and age, with the economics of what we do, with the economics of real estate, with especially the economics of labor. Every restaurant tour is trying to push the check average to afford all of that. So if the economics, Hailey, allow you to have a place that is primarily focused on beverage, minimal foodstuffs, and you can make the numbers add up, rock on because it demands less labor if you are primarily serving beverage. The second you have a full on food program, then that's you can't the same number of people to operate a bar cannot operate a kitchen unless those people are gonna work 247. Right. So you get into the business of restaurants whether you go one way or I know guest consumers love the idea of a wine bar. It's pretty cool. But where I grew up, I am sort of being pulled back into I don't wanna call it fine dining. I just wanna call it a more overt restaurant where people spend more time with you, enjoying food, and drink. And, Hailey, I would say, if we think about how we interact with wine in America versus what happens in, let's say, Europe, I think around 60% of wine in America is consumed standing up at a bar. You're up with your mates, someone has a cocktail, someone has a beer, you have a glass of wine. Done. Down. Done. Easy. Bring me another, please. When you're in Europe, you rarely see a European interact with wine like that, generally. Right. I would always say the joke of, like, Italians can tell when, like, there's an American in the restaurant because they're just drinking a glass of wine, and they don't have food with them. Even if you're having a a snack, wine is a condiment to food. Wine makes food taste better, not the other way around. And so a European, if they go out for a drink, they're gonna have a cocktail. They're gonna have a beer. They might have bubbles might have bubbles. But wine, as you and I and your listeners know, it is to be consumed with food. So I've done a lot of different things. I've been that overt wine bar guy where and listen now with terroir, beverage occupies 70% of sales, which is good on one hand. And if you would allow me a deep dive into the business of restaurants, are you gonna nod your head and say yes? Sure. Yeah. We wanna hear it. That it's a problem. It's a problem when I go to get insurance because very few insurance companies wanna underwrite a joint that has so much in alcohol sales because the fear is something is going to happen. Traditional restaurant where 60% of the sales are food, 40% of it is alcohol, How it is consumed, how people interact is completely different, and insurance companies are more open to that type of underwriting. Every single year, Haley, the conversation, I bemoan the most that I hate going into it every February is to renew my insurance policy because I know my broker is gonna tell me there are fewer and fewer companies, and every year, minimum, 2 digit increase. Anyway, I'll spend you too much time talking about the business of it. But no. I mean, it's it's fascinating to hear that because I think, like, my you know, with the little understanding I have on, like, wine bars just from visiting, in my head, I differentiate, like, a wine bar and a restaurant from, like a wine bar tends to have more wine by the glass so I can try more things. And, like like you said, it's more like the focus is on wine, and the food is just there to kind of, like, be there with it, I guess, like, versus, like, a restaurant, like, they're gonna push, here's our new food menu and everything you should try. And then, oh, yeah, I guess we have a wine menu too. Whereas like a wine bar, I think about the very first thing is like, here are all the wines. Here's what you should try. You can do more flights, and you can do more, you know, like those tasting by the glass. And the people there who work at the wine bar tend to know more about the wine and have that piece. But I never thought about all those other pieces that, like, like, in running a wine bar versus a restaurant and how those differed. Yeah. The business of it has changed dramatically in the lifespan of terroir. There once was a time where I would have absolutely told you, Haley, the success of terroir is based upon the fact that the vast majority of sales are alcohol. Selling alcohol requires less labor. Not only does it require less labor depending on the state that you're in, you have a tip minimum wage. Like, all of these things, Haley, add up because it is already so bloody hard in our industry to make a profit. And I would bet money, Hailey. The vast majority of the restaurants in the major markets in this country are breaking even today. Yeah. That's what I mean. Into a restaurant and they see a a glass of wine that is$15 and, you know, they pick up their phone and they go to whatever app, you know, where they research wine and they say, oh my god. That wine that they're serving by the glass for $15, it costs $12 a bottle retail. This is bullshit. They're making way too much money. Well, what you don't understand and I you know what? You don't need to, generally. But if we're gonna enlighten a little bit, the profit margin in restaurant is still so bloody minimal. Please don't look at that$15 glass of wine. Please do not look at that 10 to$12 vodka and soda. Please do not look at that $25 plate of pasta. And you think you know what it that thing costs, but you are missing all of the other costs of operation. Yeah. No. I've talked about that on, like, the because, yeah, you do notice, like, restaurants up charge bottles of wine. But there's a reason for it because you're not just going to the store and grabbing a bottle off the shelf and then pouring it yourself. You're missing all the pieces that go into having that bottle there with whether it's even just like paying for the HVAC system to cover the wine, you know, the seller if they have something like that or wine fridges and the cost of pouring it for you and the cost of the people knowing about it and the cost, you know, there's all those pieces that like, you chose to go to the restaurant, you're paying more for the food that you're eating than if you were to cook it yourself. So, of course, you're gonna pay more for the wine that you're drinking than if you just bought it yourself. Yeah. We're dealing wine less so than food. We're dealing with a perishable product. Mhmm. When I go to a store and buy a white T shirt for 28.95, do you ever think about the actual cost of that T shirt? I think today we're thinking about it a little bit more, where it was made, the people who made it, what conditions did they work in, etcetera, etcetera. But you'll never say, you know what? 2890 75, way too much money. That's bullshit. No way. No. No. No. You are not doing a deep dive into that cost structure like you sometimes do when you come to a restaurant. Yeah. You know, if that white t shirt cost $3 to make, look at that multiples of the markups. So when I'm charging $15 for that glass of wine, yes, most likely, the math in our industry is price of a glass equals the price of that bottle wholesale. Fifty states, 50 different markups, 50 different ways of doing this business. So it that it's not that even across the entire country, but at least in New York, most restaurants, cost of a glass equals what I paid for the bottle. And you can say, okay. Well, that's a 4 times markup if you're doing a 6 ounce glass. But you can't even count the number of things that that profit needs to pay for for me to open my restaurant doors on a daily basis. And since I've gone there, and you're kind to nod your head and allow me to keep on talking, Haley, I will tell you at least in my restaurant world that labor is 35% of my expense. Cost of goods, 35%. Occupancy, 15. So if I've added up correctly, that means for every dollar that comes in, 80¢ has gone out the door on those 3 big cost areas. That leaves me 20¢ to buy the glass that you're gonna enjoy it out of, the plate that you're gonna eat your food out of, all of the paper goods, all of the other myriad things that go into creating that restaurant space. And, hopefully, with those numbers in mind, you can quickly get to a point where you wonder, how is anyone making money? Right? Well, you're thinking, like, they must be passionate enough to love this because oh my goodness. We can talk all you want about the love of the thing. And, yes, I've done that and will do that. But if you're not in business to make money, it's a hobby. And the amount of effort that is required to do one of these things is extraordinary, and there should be some type of reward at the end of the day. Anyway, I think you wanna get back to talking about why because the this conversation about the economics of restaurants, really some fucked up shit going on there, but we do love it. We do love it. I was gonna say, I'm like it's like the one thing where, like, I go back to them like, yeah, anybody who can do this, anybody who can be a sommelier and go through the years of training to be a server where some people don't even like respect, like, that work that you put into it, you must really love that. You must love hospitality and you must have a lot of passion for it. So speaking of Tarotra, Becca, I visited a couple of times and it just, to me, it it has like it's a very unique and incredible place. And so I wanted to just give you a chance to highlight what are some things that you think make Terroir, Tribeca like especially you and and unique from other places and what is what is incredibly valuable, you think, to your restaurant and your wine bar today. This podcast is sponsored by VotCel. When you're enjoying a glass of wine, temperature matters, and you don't need to be a wine expert to know this. You know this the minute you realize you forgot to put the bottle of wine in the fridge and now you're stuck with lukewarm sauvignon blanc that is the opposite of refreshing. You know adding ice cubes will just water the wine down but it seems like it's your only option. Not anymore. I want to introduce you to one of my favorite wine gadgets, Vochill. This gadget is as simple as it is elegant. It will keep wine perfectly chilled in your own wine glass. No more clunky metal or plastic tumblers or ice in your wine. While this gadget is an absolute must during the summer months, I don't enjoy wine without it from June to September. It's also incredibly useful for those days when you're craving a glass of white or rose, but you don't want to wait for the bottle to chill in the fridge. Vochil offers a stemmed and stemless chiller in multiple colors, so you're bound to find one that's perfect for you. They also make the perfect gift. I should know. I got one for my mom at Christmas a couple years ago and she loves it. Head to vochill.com, that's v o c h ill.com to get your perfect wine chiller, and don't forget to use code corkandfizz for 15% off your order. This podcast is sponsored by the Cork Crew Virtual Wine Club. Interested in trying new wines but not sure where to start? Or maybe you've been listening to this podcast for a while and you love the idea of tasting wine live with me. If that's you, come join my Court Crew virtual wine club, and you'll get to sip wine with me twice a month while I help you find new favorite wines. The Court Crew is not your ordinary wine club. This is a community of people who are passionate about exploring new flavors, learning about different wine styles, and having fun along the way. And the best part about this club, purchasing the wine is completely optional. Plus, all events are recorded. And you have access to the full library of recordings as a court crew member. So you can always catch up if you can't make it live. Oh, and did I mention it's virtual which means you get to do all of this from the comfort of your sofa in your PJs. No need to worry about driving in crappy traffic, finding a designated driver, or spending an arm and a leg on a taxi. Wanna give it a try without the commitment? You're in luck. Right now, I'm offering a free class pass to anybody who wants to try out the Court Crew Virtual Wine Tasting Club. With this pass, you'll be able to join a Court Crew event of your choosing. No strings attached. I don't need your credit card. I don't need you to sign up for anything. You'll be my guest. Simply head to korkandfizz.com/ free class pass to get your class pass and be 1 step closer to becoming a member of the best wine tasting club around, the corkcrew. I can't wait to see you there. Now let's get back to the show. Well, I will begin with the stuff we are not. Is there better food in New York City? A 100%. Are there better beverage programs in New York City? 100%. Are there better looking restaurants? 100%. Is there better service? 100%. Is there better hospitality? I'm gonna fight you on that one. So first and foremost, what makes terroir terroir is the people who are here doing what they do. My job is very simple, Haley. 1st and foremost, I am obsessed with taking care of my team. My team comes first, more than my guests. Everything I do from the moment I walk into this joint to the moment I leave is to make sure my staff is taken care of in every which way. On a very simple level, they get a weekly paycheck that it is accurate and it doesn't bounce. That when they walk in here, they have all the tools they need do their job, that they have a clean work environment, that all the equipment works properly, that I have challenged them, at least when it comes to the front of the house staff with wine, about putting together a program that keeps them interested, them motivated, them learning. And with all of that, as a staff member here, as a member of the team, if you feel supported, then when you go to interact with that guest, you have no worry. You have no outside worry about you know what? I asked for this schedule this week, and they didn't give it to me, goddamn it, or this week's a slow week. Not gonna make it up, or whatever it may be. I need to eliminate all of that stuff so that, Haley, when you and your mates sit down in my joint, that the people, the staff of terroir who interact with you can be fully focused on you and your expectations. So that is what I think makes terroir unique, that the people here really do truly care about how you are enjoying this. And maybe just maybe, Haley, you came here for a simple glass of wine because you're going somewhere else for dinner. But I don't give a shit whether you're here for 20 minutes or 2 hours. In that experience that you've allowed us to have with you, we are going to take you on a journey. And the vast majority of those journeys are through wine. So that is, I hope, what makes our joint unique, that the staff has the freedom to do whatever they want to fulfill your expectations through wine, whatever that may be. Oh, I love that. And I and it's an I can't be more true because I've I've spoken with what? I think I've spoken with 3 different people who've worked at Taiwan. They have nothing but like positive things of just like you can tell. They love what they're doing. They feel comfortable in the space they're in, so then they can teach you all about the wine or just like like you said, take you on a journey, which is what we love about wine in the first place. So speaking of the people, I have to ask because the first way I heard about terra trip echo was through Bianca's corkdork book. I read the book. This was actually the book that got me into wine in the first place. I read this and immediately fell in love with the idea that wine could be so many things. And then, of course, I read about Bianca's experience at Terroir. And so I just have to ask you from your point of view, and actually had Bianca on the podcast as well. What was your first impression of Bianca? And have you read Corkdork? And do you think it, like, accurately represents her time there at terroir? Yeah. I think it is a perfect depiction of the interaction that we had at terroir. And depending on the reader, they will think that I came across as a little bit heavy handed and, you know, in your face, and were wondering if I enjoyed enjoyed my portrayal. And the answer is, oh, fucking right. I did. Oh, goddamn it. I remember when Bianca reached out with the idea, and we had a great conversation. She said, yeah. For shits and giggles, come on in. And when she came in here, she worked 1 shift a week. And once she started working, I forgot why she was here. Listen. She's on the floor of the restaurant. My expectations of her were the same as every other staff member, And she was taking care of you. So I did not have her here just to float through the restaurant and just interact whenever she wanted and have any no. She was taking care of a goddamn station, and these people were paying the same amount as someone else. So at the beginning of her journey here, like, I did not interview her to see if she had the same experience and know how to come in and be a server in a restaurant. There is a skill set there. So at least in my mind, and I'm I'm adding a little bit for shits and giggles. Sure. It was fucking insane. Like, I'd I'd look in her station. I'd see the tables, how busy it was, and I'd see her at a tabletop having a conversation. I'm like, okay. Cool. And then I look over, you know, a few minutes later, I'm like, she's still at the same fucking table. Like, goddamn it. And I'm looking at all the other guests in her station, and they're all looking up with their hands, like, trying to get help. They want wine. They want the food, whatever. And Bianca's, like, nose deep in a fucking conversation with them. Like, goddamn it. There's a fire in your station that you don't even see because you just wanna talk about wine. Right. All of this in a loving manner because it resulted in what I believe to be the best wine book of the last 20 years. Because most almost every wine book that I buy or that is released in the course of a year is what I would refer to as a reference work. It's a book that I'm gonna put on my shelf and pull down when I need to do some research or for the Uberwine Gates who wanna choose go deep into whatever and they read this, but it's not the most fascinating reading for fuck's sakes. But Bianca's book is. It is a brilliant story of an individual who felt she had no ability to discern the difference in wine, and I guess I'm gonna give up the end. You know, a year later, she passed the first level of the master somm. Like, that's an incredible journey that tells, that shows the woman man on the street. If you think wine is intimidating, look at what Bianca did, I can do it too. I think that book has done more to get people into wine, to be not just curious, but curious and more curious. Curious in you know what? I wanna do the first level of w set. I wanna go on. I wanna have these types of conversations. I wanna go when I have vacation, I wanna go to a wine region, and I'm not gonna be intimidated. And, truly, I guess, with each interaction we have with the guests, we're planting seeds about what you may or may not wanna do with wine as you move forward in your life. Bianca's book did it absolutely so, Haley. I love that book. And you know what? Here we are. It's been out now for 8 years, I guess. Whatever it is. 7, 8 years. People still come to terroir because of that book and the story she told about us. I fucking love it. Love it. It's a gift that has continued to give to terra walk. Bianca's a great writer. She told a brilliant story. She did, didn't she? I I know I couldn't agree more. And I'm an exact example of that happening. I read the book, and I was like, I need to dive into this world of wine. Okay. So I wanna make sure we give enough time on the podcast to talk about another passion of yours or specifically passion in the world of wine, which is Riesling. So beyond terrotribecca, you're also known for the summer of riesling. So first, can we just talk about what is the summer of riesling? Very simply put, it is a full scale love affair of the Riesling grape in technicolor, period. I love it. Okay. Now why riesling? Why do you love riesling? Why should everyone try riesling? The great thing about being a restaurant owner is that you get to engage in disciplines and a myriad of disciplines that not many other occupations allow. So when you open up a restaurant, you get to determine not only the food program, the beverage program, you get to be an architect, you get to be an interior designer, You get to be a musicologist. You get to be a florist, choosing the uniforms for your staff. So you get to be in fashion. All of these things. It's unbelievable. And then you get to manifest your loves and desires within your four walls. So if you come here to terroir and I'm here, you will know immediately I'm here because over the sound system, you will a only hear eighties British new wave. And my staff hates it, but you know what? Too bad. My restaurant, I get to do whatever the hell I And you will know I'm not here because you will hear completely different types of music. So from my love of music back to when I was a teenager, young adult, I really fell in love with that stuff coming out of England in the early to mid eighties, morphed into alternative, and all of my friends were more into American rock, traditional rock. And I couldn't stand that stuff. So I would work my ass off to convince them to like the shit that I liked. Play music for them, make them mixtapes, go to concerts, do all of those things. So I was fighting the good fight I felt for those things that were not getting proper respect. Sounds familiar. So here is a grape that any book you read will list it as a noble grape. Any book you read on wine history, you'll go back to the turn of 20th century, and you will see that Riesling was, not arguably, was the greatest grape on the planet. Look at any wine list in American in a restaurant in America in the year 1900, and you will see the German Riesling occupy the most amount of real estate. And then you could say, well, what the fuck happened? Well, a lot of different things happened. And would people bring present day to a wine conversation. It's amazing how quickly we interact with the glass of wine, and within microseconds, you are like thumbs up, thumbs down. Even then, no grave suffers like Riesling. Because even if just once in your goddamn life, you've had a Riesling that might have had some residual sugar, what you do is maintain that memory and say, all Riesling is sweet. Take out that big fucking broom in your closet, and you sweep the entire world of wine away with riesling. No way am I drinking riesling. And so, you know what? It narrows the wine world down. I'm never gonna have riesling because it's sweet. So me, a contrarian, fighting the good fight for shit that doesn't get the respect it deserves, Riesling spoke to me. I will not tell you, Haley, that, oh my god, I had this bottle, 1976 JJ Prum Riesling Spate Lase back in 1986, and it blew my fucking mind. And that made me a re no. It did happen. But I had a lot of cool wines that rocked my fucking world. But when I got to a place in my career where I could fully flex my wine muscles, and that really happened at the first terroir, 450 square feet, $2,000 a month rent, 3 employees, low. Going back to a previous conversation, low cost of operation. I felt I could do whatever the fuck I wanted. That that place, 450 square feet, was like a sandbox. And, Haley, I can't speak for you, but when I was a kid, I loved the fucking sandbox. I loved the sandbox because it was my sandbox with my friends, my toys, my rules. So terroir, sandbox, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want. And, you know, thinking through what have I done in my wine career, what have I wanted to do. For the most part, Haley, if you had a lineup of soms in front of you and you ask them to name their favorite grape or favorite wine, I think you'd probably narrow the answers down to 2, Pinot Noir and Riesling. I get the pinot Noir, and I understand Psalms do whatever they do with it. Lots of it available, all different styles from all different places. But what do they do with Riesling? None of that shit. Every song says, oh, yeah. Favorite grape. Favorite wine, love it. Food wine, blah blah blah. Well, what do you do at your goddamn restaurant? You do big fucking 0 at your restaurant. So I said, well, if I'm going to go this route, if I'm because I had interacted with it in various ways when I was a hired gun and when I opened my first restaurant. But now in terroir, it's like, okay. We opened in March of 08. And as I'm thinking about what I'm going to do wine wise, what deep dive's gonna do. And it sounds so stupid and trite. You know, on that opening wine list, I had a Barolo by the glass, a Barbaresco by the glass, and I had a Nebbiolo by the glass, and a few Altepidemonte Nebbiolos. And people walked and said, oh my god. You have 6 Nebbiolos by the glass. That is so fucking revolutionary. Like, really? That's revolutionary? That's fucking stupid shit to me. But, you know, we did it, and, you know, it caused a little bit of conversation. So as I'm sort of thinking about that, you know, how am I gonna flex my wrestling muscles? Well, it's already spring. Summer's coming. The nature of riesling, high acidity, it's refreshing. There may or may not be a little residual sugar. So in that way, it sort of mirrors a great glass of lemonade, sweet, sour, interplay. Fucking done that shit all day. Well, how about we do a summer of riesling? How about this summer, o eight, I pour a lot of Riesling. In fact, because the cost of operation is so minimal, how about I only pour Riesling? That's it. So that is the origin of the summer of riesling, was taking the wine program at terroir, East Village, and only pouring recently. 35 of them. Guests came in and said, I'd like a glass of sauvignon blanc. Staff would say, sorry. We don't have it. Well, that's strange, but okay. How about a glass of Chardonnay? Nope. Don't have it. That's strange. Okay. How about Pinot Grigio? You must have Pinot Grigio for fuck's sakes. And the staff would say, no. I'm like, what do you have? We have Riesling. Only Riesling? Well, that's stupid. Yes. It is stupid. Our owner's a fucking asshole for doing this. But I guess a thought about it was, yes, to challenge guests, was to force guests. But stylistically, for all the types of white wine that you and your mates would love, as elaborated on by a myriad of white grapes, Riesling stylistically can do all of that. I guess the only one it can't, if you like a full on oak balm white wine, there's no riesling that's gonna do that. But every other style, chablis, New Zealand sauvignon blanc, Italian pinot grigio, albarino, whatever the fuck it is, I've got a riesling that can fill that bill. And I've got the other with the residual sugar levels. So I would say in that 1st year, my staff hated it. My partner really fucking hated it. But I move in singular manner, so summer has 94 days. We did it for 94 goddamn days, and I did not relent. We didn't lose any money. The doors didn't close. So it's done. Fine. And then we get to spring of 2009. My staff looks at me and says, you're not gonna do that summer recently again, are you? And that's all I need to hear to say, fucking right we are. So Like, absolutely. Year 2. And then in 2010, terroir, Tribeca opened. And I brought it here, and all of a sudden now 2 joints were doing Summer of Wiesling. And now the press, sort of, being the press is like, oh, must be important if 2 places are doing it. And so from there, it took off to become the thing that it became, and there you have it. And you you could say, what has it accomplished? I didn't go into it to accomplish anything. But the difference I see is roughly, Haley, back in those days, the early days, people would walk in and say, you know, I like glass of wine. You'd say, Riesling. They're like, no. It's sweet. Today, I like glass of wine. How about a Riesling? Tell me about it. Let me taste it. The door's not shut. The doors are open for at least an interaction to see what the fuck it's about. And if there's been a generational change since 2,008, and I have no clue if there has been. But we young wine drinkers today don't come in with the preconceived notions of their parents and grandparents. They're open minded to everything and anything. They just want to taste it. They want a story. Riesling's got all of that shit. Yeah. I think that's so important. I mean, that's the biggest change, right, of being willing to try things. And I have one last question before we get to the speed round, but it's kind of along this idea. So I've once heard that you gave the advice of never drinking the same wine twice. Do you stand by that advice? It's not advice, Haley. It's a demand. Alright. I take that as a yes. I'm in New York City in New York state. I think New York City is the greatest wine city on the planet. Why is that? Because at this exact moment in time as a wine buyer, Haley, there are 55,000 different wines that I have the opportunity to buy and have at my restaurant. Why would I ever drink the same wine twice? I think why why miss out? No. I agree. It's a world of grape juice, and that curiosity that I guess I had back as a teenager, young adult that manifested itself with my music choices and all the other stuff. I love to take the path least traveled. And I I see the legitimacy, Haley, of looking at a wine lister, being a beverage director who will have a vertical of a wine, who will have 10 vintages so you can go on those deep dives. I get that, and I've enjoyed that. I'd rather go horizontal. I'd rather discover a new region that I've never heard of before or a new grape. Holy crap. There are 450 indigenous grapes in Italy. There's 250 important so I why not make it a goal to try every goddamn indigenous grape in Italy? You could spend the rest of your life doing this, that grape grown and all, and you would never ever need to try the same wine twice. And that's just Italy. So, yes, Haley, it is a demand of mine. Never drink the same wine twice. Perfect. Okay. So I'm gonna finish with the speed round. This is a round that I just ask every guest on the podcast. I say speed round just because these are kind of somewhat tough questions where I'm just looking for, like, what's the first thing that comes to mind is the idea. So the first one, a lot of people like to ask, what is your favorite wine? And I get that, like, that's, you know, nearly impossible, but I wanna ask, what is your favorite wine at the moment? I hate that question, Haley. But okay. It is a pinot noir from a coat of barrels in the Adelaide Hills of Australia called A Forest, named after the cure song. I was just I'm learning about Australian wine right now. I got Jane Lope's new book on, like, all the Australian wine, and that sounds really good. Okay. How about a favorite wine region that you've visited? I think the Mosel River Valley of Germany is staggering in every way possible. When you visit it, you should be gobsmacked that humans have chosen to plant grapes on these hills that are so fucking steep you can barely get up them. And when you talk about when you think of the word terroir, you think of soil, you think of earth, it's solid fucking slate. It's rock. How does the vine grow, and how did human beings get the moment to plant vines there? It's fucking crazy and dramatic. And when you finally accept all of those things and you taste the wine, your mind will explode. Okay. Now I'm gonna go on the other side of that of a wine region you'd like to visit that you haven't yet. The northern Rhone Valley of France. Those granite, hillsides, slopes, a singular grate, the different manifestations of that rocks my fucking world, and I have yet to go there. Okay. I have a feeling this next question you're also not gonna like, but you're in the restaurant world, so I have to ask. What is your favorite wine and food pairing? A potato chip and a Riesling cabinet. And remind me again, cabinet, is that a dry riesling, or what is the what does that what kind of style riesling that you wanna be? Some residual sugar. So it will begin off dry. It will finish dry. It will have blazing fucking acidity. It will have a dollop of residual sugar paired with the saltiness of the potato chip. Perfect. Okay. And the last one for somebody that's starting to get into wine, what is a bottle? Like, if they're at the store looking to try something new, what kind of what's your go to for a bottle of wine under$15? Chateau Saint Michel dry riesling. Last time I checked, that wine is available in all 50 states. I think you can buy it at Target. I went to the national park in Big Bend or Big Bend National Park in Texas and stayed at the the hotel there, which is no luxuries at all. They had fucking shadow San Michele Riesling. I think it retails for 1199. That Riesling over delivers for $11.99. Shout out to Sam Michelle, largest producer of Riesling on the planet, making kick ass fucking Riesling. Load up the cases in the trunk of your car. Okay. Perfect. I love hearing it from you too. I I I'm I'm based in Washington. I'm in Seattle. And so I've I've you know, I hear a lot about Chateau Ste Michelle. And I see it everywhere, but it's good to know that you say it's worth it or it's a good value, like the good, good value for you about. 100%. Okay. Awesome. Well, we've come to the end. Thank you so much for your time and for the stories and the passion. It was really fun to just listen into you talk about wine and and the restaurant world and and everything. Haley, my pleasure. Thank you very much. Alright. Have a great rest of your evening. You too. Big cheers. Alright. Cheers. So what do you think? Are you feeling inspired to try some riesling? If you're ever in New York City, you've got to go visit terroir. You will not regret it. Now if you love this episode as much as I did, I would so appreciate it if you could take a quick second, rate it, and leave a review. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy it, please share it with them. It's the best way to help me grow this podcast. In next week's episode, I'll be embracing the warmer temperatures or forcibly willing them to happen depending on whether agrees with me or not, by sharing my favorite picnic wines with you. Thanks again for listening. And as a thank you, I'd like to share my free shopping guide, 15 wines under $15. Simply head to my website, corkandfizz.com. Scroll down to the bottom and join my mailing list. Cheers.